Help for essay about CTP technology!

studentkarin

New member
Hello!

I'm currently trying to write a short essay about one certain ctp-technology called KODAK SquareSPOT Technology. They claim to be the best thermal technology available at the moment, and I would like to know what's so special about it.

  • First of all I need to know what 20-micron and 10-micron means?
  • Second, what is the difference between Conventional Gaussian dot and CTV? What does this actually mean?
  • Is anyone here using thermal platesetting, and if so, what do you like about it? Compared to the ultraviolet technology.
  • Maybe someone here is actually using or have been using any of the Kodak Plate setters that I'm talking about? Even with the SquareSPOT technology?

Also, they claim that when you use SquareSPOT you get less plate waste, chemistry usage, remakes and compromised color among other things. Does anyone who is using any other kind of thermal CTP-system having problem with this?

I'm VERY grateful for answers on this, since the internet isnt a very helpful source for a student in this business. If anyone wishes to contact me about this my email adress is: [email protected]

Thanks for now, wishing for lot'sa help! :)

Karin
 
I'm currently trying to write a short essay about one certain ctp-technology called KODAK SquareSPOT Technology. They claim to be the best thermal technology available at the moment, and I would like to know what's so special about it.

Have you looked at Kodak's web site on this topic? SQUARESPOT Technology - Kodak Graphic Communications Group

A 1% dot at 240 lpi on a 2400 dpi ctp device is 10.6 microns in size. It's a single pixel.

A 20 micron dot is a cluster of 4 10.6 micron dots.

There's some related information if you rummage around my blog - these two posts will get you started:

Quality In Print: Hybrid AM Screening/XM Screening
Quality In Print: Hybrid AM Screening/XM Screening - Addendum, part 1

best, gordon p - former Creo/Kodak SQUAREspot marketing manager.
 
Thank you for the links and the explanations. :) Of course I have been watching that first link, and thats most of my material right there. I'm on the hunt for the extra bits here, like if someone is using it, and has comments maybe. But a huge thanks for noting and replying to my thread. :)

Karin
 
CTP Technologies

CTP Technologies

We are now focused on Computer to Plate technology and offer all 4 technologies...

BASYS PRINT for the UV Plate. Most expensive system, best built but images the CHEAPEST plates so for the high volume plate user like newspapers etc. definately the way to go.

SCREEN Thermal CTP, new and used systems. Great machines, built well and the laser technology is the least expensive Thermal to service. Processless plates available.

Escher Grad COBALT Violet Laser Technology. Low cost to own and maintain. "Chem free" coming soon!

ECRM DPX Polyester CTP. Low cost plates for short run. Best system for polyester, nice quality printing, reliable machines.

Well, there you have it. Call me if you have any specific questions or if you are looking for CTP and need to save money.

Thanks,

Terry Allen 818-764-9500 or [email protected]
 
Thank you Andrei, that was very interesting and helpful! It would be even more interesting though if maybe Gordon saw this, and shared his comments to your link! :) I'm crossing my fingers for that....
 
Luscher is missing the point... apples and oranges.

Luscher is missing the point... apples and oranges.


Actually, if you understand the first thing about the value of SQUAREspot technology, you'll see that Luscher is completely missing the point with that presentation. The "squareness" of the dot (as seen from the top) is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion - the value is the "squareness" of the dot shoulder... i.e. how steep/quickly it transitions from exposed to unexposed.

Lusher's right about one thing - square dots don't print any better than round ones... but dots with square shoulders certainly do (less sensitivity to variation, higher resolution, less wear, more latitude, etc.). That's where SQUAREspot has a huge advantage over any other imaging technology.

Karin - if you send me your email address in a private message, I'll send you our technology white papers that explain the technology properly, and answer any of your questions.

Kevin
 
squarespot

squarespot

I am curious about "squarespot" technology and am wondering if it's just another gimick. Is it that the edges of the laser beam is squared off and doesn't over lap? In Violet laser imaging on a Cobalt for instance there is over lap from line to line. We get a nice clean dot, nearly as good as Thermal and since dots look like crap once the ink is transferred to paper who can really tell the difference?

As far as UV technology vs Thermal, Basys has an impressive way of doing things and I can go into detail if anyone cares. The bottom line is the UV plates are cheaper than thermal and when you are a newspaper using 20,000 plates per month that savings can be significant. Funny enough because of the technology the BASYS UV setter has the lowest DIP but best dot structure. I can explain that too if anyone cares.

I'm just waiting for the Violet Chem Free plates to be released... can anyone explain the hold up? I've got lots of Violet CTPs sitting here ready to go as soon as that happens!!! I saw AGFAs chem free Violet 3 years ago at IPEX and it ran fine, I saw Fujis Chem free Violet Plate demoed at Drupa, no problem. I assume the hold up is marketing and not the technology...
 
I am curious about "squarespot" technology and am wondering if it's just another gimick. Is it that the edges of the laser beam is squared off and doesn't over lap? In Violet laser imaging on a Cobalt for instance there is over lap from line to line. We get a nice clean dot, nearly as good as Thermal and since dots look like crap once the ink is transferred to paper who can really tell the difference?

Seeing as you're a competing vendor, I'm sure one post won't convince you, but here's an analogy anyways:

Imagine your printing dot is a nice sandy-beach desert island. As the tide gets higher and lower your island gets smaller and bigger, respectively, based on how wide and shallow those beaches are. This sea-level change is all the variables in the plate-making process (laser power, laser focus, plate sensitivity, plate aging, chemistry, processor condition, even heat/humidity in prepress sometimes - mainly for violet plates, plus the effect of wear during the print run). How wide the beach is represents how sharp the edges of the laser dot are.

Plates imaged with normal gausian technologies, like violet, have big, wide sandy beaches, and are therefor sensitive to even small changes in sea level before you notice your island getting smaller.

Plates imaged with GLV are a bit better, but still have sandy beaches which can change.

Plates imaged with SQUAREspot are like the cliffs of Dover... it takes a LARGE change in sea level for you to notice anything at all.

This is not just marketing theory - we have loads of data and customer testimonials to back it up. If anyone wants more, send me your email address and I'll send you the same stuff I sent Karin.

That latitude and consistency results in process control - eliminating the effects of variation you're fighting otherwise. This is what allows you to do higher quality, higher linescreen, spotcolor replacement, or simply to reduce variation and cost in the press room. We used to focus a bit too much on SQUAREspot enabling Staccato FM screening, but the value is also there for any printer who can benefit from process control and wants to reduce costs and overhead.

Kevin.
 
I'm just waiting for the Violet Chem Free plates to be released... can anyone explain the hold up? I've got lots of Violet CTPs sitting here ready to go as soon as that happens!!! I saw AGFAs chem free Violet 3 years ago at IPEX and it ran fine, I saw Fujis Chem free Violet Plate demoed at Drupa, no problem. I assume the hold up is marketing and not the technology...

Plates from Fuji do appear to making it to market now, however it appears from little I have seen that they have been targeting non fuji plate users. Another issue has been processors. There are few chem free specific processors out there, and conversion kits for others don't appear to be ready yet.

Results on plate seem quite good, but time lag between imaging and processing is more critical
 
Seeing as you're a competing vendor, I'm sure one post won't convince you, but here's an analogy anyways:

Kevin, I am an engineer as well as a competitor but not a chemist so can I understand the laser technology and if the explanation is scientifically sound, I will accept the first explanation.... I'm not disputing your answer because I don't much about the chemical makeup of plate emulsions, just interested in understanding how it works. You described the results but not how it achieved.
To achieve the "cliffs of Dover" in your analogy, you would need either a very sharp focused edge to the laser beams which I assume is how you do it with simply an aperture, or the "on" power state is much higher than your "off" state and is just blasting off the emulsion making a sharp edge to the dot or changing the molecular bonds with brute force. What you are describing with the island analogy was common with the old lith film from the 80's and earlier. I would think your square dot technology results would still depend more on the plate you are imaging, the threshold of the emulsion coating and chemicals etc.... and power and focus settings more than the laser technology which brings us back to the island.

Terry Allen, Spectrecom
 
Let us not forget all of this happens in ideal conditions i.e. perfectly balanced beams, well adjusted focus and good quality plates to achieve both quality level and productivity. These square spot machines appear to need a lot of maintenance read service contract (...bingo). Oh one more thing, did anyone say how much is a replacement head ?
 
To achieve the "cliffs of Dover" in your analogy, you would need either a very sharp focused edge to the laser beams which I assume is how you do it with simply an aperture, or the "on" power state is much higher than your "off" state and is just blasting off the emulsion making a sharp edge to the dot or changing the molecular bonds with brute force. What you are describing with the island analogy was common with the old lith film from the 80's and earlier. I would think your square dot technology results would still depend more on the plate you are imaging, the threshold of the emulsion coating and chemicals etc.... and power and focus settings more than the laser technology which brings us back to the island.

Terry Allen, Spectrecom

There are several aspects to how we achieve the "cliffs of Dover" in my analogy, which are unique to SQUAREspot:

1) our laser system is actually 10,000 dpi. We use a grid of 4x4 laser spots to expose each 10-micron pixel on the plate. Essentially, this is the equivalent of drawing the dots with a ballpoint pen, instead of a crayon - allowing you to be much more accurate over a small area.

2) the laser system compresses the edge of the dot - which is normally a gaussian spot for any laser device - so that the edge is narrower (gaussian is like a bell curve - brighter in the center, and fading on the edges). This is a function of the unique optics and light valve in our SQUAREspot head, which is proprietary and patented.

3) we have dynamic auto-focus to ensure the laser is always perfectly in focus, even when the plate surface is uneven.

Assuming you're working with a thermal cross-linking plate , even if it has a 100% binary threshold for exposure, if you have a wide gausian dot edge it doesn't take much variation in plate sensitivy, exposure energy, or processing parameters to change where on that gausian edge the "flip" takes place, changing the area of your dot.

At 150lpi this isn't such a big deal - because the ratio of that gausian laser dot edge to the total area of each printing dot is fairly small. However when you get finer screens (175-200lpi and higher, especially in highlights, or with FM screening), that ratio is much greater.

If you're talking about a 1 square mile sized island (150lpi midtones), a little change in sea level isn't going to make much difference. However, if you're living on a 30 foot by 30 foot island (175lpi highlights or 20 micron FM screeing), a small change in sea level is going to scare the heck out of you unless you are standing atop the cliffs of Dover.

Kevin.
 
Thank you Andrei, that was very interesting and helpful! It would be even more interesting though if maybe Gordon saw this, and shared his comments to your link! :) I'm crossing my fingers for that....

The Luscher paper, as Kevin from Kodak pointed out, completely misunderstands the technology and value propositions - so their arguments against it are completely irrelevant. They also extensively quote a GATF report on FM screening which had been discredited (due to the poor methodology used in the study), and which was redone the following year in order to try and make up for the initial inadequacies.
I'm surprised and disappointed that Luscher is still using that document. At the very least they should update it with better argumentation.

Since I'm no longer employed at Kodak I'll let them argue the merits of their squarespot technology.

I will however speak to the points made in the GATF study they used, because poor research methodologies often result misinformation being propagated through the industry.

Luscher is referring to the 2003 GATF Research and Technology report "Stochastic and hybrid screening printability study" by Gregory Radencic.

• The Testing Method
Luscher says: "The test forms were sent to screen-technology suppliers with the request that they expose the test forms on a plate of their choice, without using correction curves, and send the plates to the GATF for printing."
In actuality curves were applied during the RGB to CMYK separation process (pg 6 "The conversion process [RGB to CMYK] was a custom conversion in Photoshop for the anticipated amount of midtone gain."
Were the plates imaged without using correction curves. No. (pg 7 "dot area [on plate] measured from a positive curve applying 5% to the midtone to a negative curve reducing the dot area by as much as 10%." The plate linearity was all over the place. Interestingly the Luscher plates were some of the least linear with a spread of 4% at 50% for 300 lpi and 6% at 20 micron FM. Between different screen rulings in one color from 150 lpi to 10 micron the spread was as high as 14%. (pg 34 of the research paper)
Also, GATF mixed significantly different screening on their test form (5 different screens) a big problem since the different ink/water balance requirements on the same plate would be significant. (Note, for that reason Creo did not follow GATF's request. Instead, even though the Creo workflow allowed for it, we instead supplied plates with only one screening type on each set.) Also, some plates were imaged at 2400 dpi and others at 3600 dpi and 4000 dpi adding yet more variables to the research.

• The Participants
Correctly stated

• The Results
Luscher says: "With this screening survey, GATF either consciously or unconsciously answered the question whether square laser spots are better than round laser spots." That is a ridiculous statement with no relationship to the GATF study at all.
GATF summarised their own evaluation as follows: stochastic (=FM) screens have
• a higher tone value increase (GP - obviously, smaller dots AM/XM or FM have larger perimeter to area ratios and hence more dot gain. The printer simply compensates for that with a curve applied to the plate.)
• no increase of gamut (GP - Incorrect. GATF measured gamut based on solid ink densities - i.e. they measured a 2 dimensional gamut. However, gamut is 3 dimensional and if they had measured that they would have seen the increased FM gamut.)
• a slightly different grey balance (GP This can occur but is simple to correct if it does)
• smoother gradation (GP Yes)
• elimination of moirées (GP Yes)
• better skin tones (GP Yes)
• a higher degree of colour printing (GP I think this means better quality color? If so yes.)

• Resolution/Contrast
Luscher writes: "A major advantage of FM screens is their high resolution, with which, in theory, a better reproduction of image details can be achieved in comparison to autotypical raster dots. In practice, such details only make an impact if finest image structures, such as in fabrics, prevent a moirée."
I would argue that printers are in the business of reproducing original art - the more faithful a reproduction of the original they can achieve the better they are at doing their job. As one print buyer said to me - "I don't see dots in my art and I don't want to see dots in my presswork."

Luscher writes: "On the other hand, an image printed with autotypical raster dots has a higher contrast, because the white paper between the raster dots has a contrast-increasing effect on the eye."
That is correct for low frequency AM/XM halftones such as is true for newspaper work but not true for 150 lpi AM/XM screens and finer.

• Screen Ruling/Procedure Safety
What Luscher writes is best answered by Kodak as it refers to plate imaging integrity.

• What does this mean in Practice?
What Luscher says is correct.

• 10 µm FM Screen: not advisable
What Luscher says is somewhat correct. It is true the move to a 10 µm fine FM screen, the processing latitude is so tight, as if one were to print with a 350 screen without visible improvement in the printed image when compared with a 20 µm screen. But for those printers and customers who find value in 10 micron FM, they will do what it takes to implement the technology. For example, Watkins Litho in Kansas is a printer who's business was turned completely around because they implemented 10 micron FM in order to attract work from companies such as Hallmark Greeting cards (which have been done 10 micron FM for many years)

Luscher says: "Not a single one of the advantages of stochastic screening ascertained by GATF is improved by the 10 µm FM
screen!"
For the things that GATF researched, yes. But not for the things that GATF didn't research.
Luscher says: "We therefore expressly discourage our customers from this." Interestingly Luscher was one of only 2 vendors who provided 10 micron FM plates for testing (the other was Creo)

I prefer it when vendors empower me with their solutions rather than discourage me from exploiting the value locked up in their solutions.

Luscher writes: "When summing up the pros and cons of 10µm FM screening, it seems as if this is as big a marketing ploy
as the alleged advantages of square laser spots; we can thus refute two myths on thermal screening in one go."

Again, an irrelevant statement resulting from a complete lack of understanding of Creo/Kodak technology.

studentkarin, if you've read this far, I would be very interested in your description of the value/benefits of Kodak's squarepot imaging technology, perhaps in bullet point form, based on your understanding from your research. In other words, how do you think a Kodak sales representative would describe the benefit(s) or value of the technology to the printer, perhaps in comparison to competing offers.

best, gordon pritchard
(Former marketing manager for Kodak squarespot imaging but no longer an apologist for their technology)
 
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I want to thank everyone who replied and discussed my topic, it has been very interesting and I'm currently writing the essay. You guys have been a huge help for me, and I will of course mention you in my resources. Gordon, my essay will be written in swedish, but if I translate it I will come back to you for your email adress, to send it to you.

Again, thank you so much!

Take Care
Karin
 
I'd love to read the essay, even if in swedish. I do not have experience with the square dot, but the arguments are allways interesting because they help understand the physical processes of printing.
I also want to raise a question... risking to show my lack of insigt, and perhapps coloured by a recent incident.
If one is testing the banifits of a raster technique, it would be very hard to find all the variables. Would one first test the optimal printing conditions for each screen technology and then compare the best in each class? (I am sure there is some circumstance where the new kind of blankets are good, but not in combination with the rest of our configuration.)
Why I raise the question is that, we recieved some blankets of different brand, wich greatly affects appearance of the dots on paper. So in just looking at blankets, would all screens be printed with the same blanket, or each with the optimal blankets for each type. Now that was just blankets as I understand there were a number of variables not nailed down, wich does as gordo states deem the report less scientific in its approach.
 
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To Lukas
If one is testing the benefits of different raster (halftone screening) dot shapes like square dot (not to be confused with squarespot) the important thing is to make sure that test conditions are as identical as possible. So, all screens within a class (e.g. 175 lpi) should be printed with the same blanket. In fact they can all be imaged onto the same plate and run at the same time. The frequency (lpi) of the screen is more important than dot shape as far as press condition is concerned because the frequency determines the size of the dots that will be transferred from plate to blanket and blanket to substrate. The size of the dots effects how the blanket type (compressible/non-compressible) and surface layer (cast, ground, chemically textured) perform. So you would not mix 175 lpi with 300 lpi AM/XM and 20 micron FM on the same plate/blanket. For testing purposes, there is no need to optimize the blanket choice based on the dot shape.

Incidently, square dot halftones were historically used for catalog work, letterpress, and specialty work because it gives an impression of a "sharper" looking image on press thus reducing the need for excessive sharpening in image editing applications. However, it is very prone to loss of shadow detail due to very thin spaces between shadow dots.
See here for more info on AM/XM dot shapes: Quality In Print: AM Screening Dot Shapes

best, gordon p
 
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Want to know about CTP Technology

Want to know about CTP Technology

Hi Kevin,

I want to enter in this Computer to plate devives, but I am confusing between violet and thermal technologies, Could you please give me all the details of hermal Technology and that of Voilet too and how these are better than CTCP. Please give me the price difference too. What all thing should be kept in mind while installing a CTP device. I would be a great pleasure for me if u could share me these all details.

Regards
Lokesh Sarawgi
 
Looking through the essay and doing a little thinking… is it not that the square spot is more benificial the smaller the screen or to be more precise the closer the screen is to the dpi of the setter? So for setting device with a 1200 dpi setting using square spot and FM would really give maximum stability and resoloution. As the Screen (LPI) decreases (bigger screen dots), or the DPI of the CTP increases, so that each raster dot is more "spots"per dot the benifits become less obvious.
(Me being mainty prepress, it would be the same as when working with screen (www/ monitor) images each pixel is more important, since it is a 1:1 ratio to the output)
 
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