How are ICCs going on design?

[Dario]

(I hope the choice to put this poll here to be wise enough)

This question raised from the fact that designers continue to send us jobs without knowing what an ICC profil is.
So what is your experience on it?
Mine is wide... They give us file using all the options I set in the poll.

For example, despite the fact that Fogra51 came out many years ago, jobs based on Fogra39 are still coming in.
I still use Fogra39 myself - and so do much more famous and important repro houses.
In all the years I've seen only 1 job come in with the Fogra51 profile embedded - but the designer who made it didn't know what it was for, and simply read that it was the latest update.

 

[Ulrich]

Nice poll

But the result is not surprising

With regard to dealing with the situation and possible solutions, from my point of view this is and remains a dilemma:

A)
If the print shops safeguards itself by "demanding" specific standards such as PDF / x-1 or -x4 for FOGRA39 / 47 or 51/52, for example, then some customers (including formerly trained graphic designers) do not even come to them because they are overwhelmed with it and not ready to familiarize themselves with it: I still hear the argument / the opinion that everything technical is a matter for the printing company. In addition: Even valid PDF / x data can be incorrect in terms of content and lead to unsatisfactory results if, for example, the creator is not clear about the difference between "assign profile" and "convert to profile" or if an RI is "absolutely colorimetric" somewhere in the chain was used ...

B)
If the print shop processes non-standardized data and simply takes the ICC information contained therein literally for conversions that have yet to be carried out, this is also not a solution: I still get (in Europe!) a lot of elements profiled with SWOPwebcoated or documents declared as output conditions, just because this is the standard configuration of color management when installing an American product ...

I already get a few more FOGRA51 and 52 data than you do, but in a direct comparison among those assumed by the creator to be capable of color management, this is felt / estimated at most 5-10%. This can also simply be due to the fact that the big "online" players on the market such as "Flyeralarm" etc. have meanwhile changed over and write this into their requirements.

For smaller print shops, personal contact and appropriate advice is still a good method to create customers loyalty, but neither online instructions on the homepage nor in a face-to-face conversation on the phone or at the office can always provide the necessary "training", or they simply pick up the appropriate "know-how" and then go to the cheaper competition.

 

[Dario]

I still hear the argument / the opinion that everything technical is a matter for the printing company

.

I still get (in Europe!) a lot of elements profiled with SWOPwebcoated

me too both.

 

[abc]

Should really make a distinction between the use of tagged profiles and the use of Output Intents in PDF/X.
Definitely not the same thing.

 

[Dario]

Should really make a distinction between the use of tagged profiles and the use of Output Intents in PDF/X.
Definitely not the same thing.

Sorry, did you mean "ICC tagged objects" in the pdf VS the general ICC used at the document level?
(my English is bad!)

 

[Ulrich]

Should really make a distinction between the use of tagged profiles and the use of Output Intents in PDF/X.
Definitely not the same thing.

Sure, but the unknowingly done "misuse" or better "not reflected" Colormanagement is the same:

when i get in Germany an OI declared with SWOP..., mostly it is better to do not convert to FOGRA39 (or 51), because the Designer/Customer had used that ("unknowingly wrong") separation in former runs and is used to the result. May be he had started once more than 10 years ago with FOGRA27 (blue-violett problem by converting to 39) and had just change his computer with a new installation of the creative suite...,
A lot of my fellows in preprint do not bother also, sometimes adviced by their management: "Take the files separation as they are coming, otherwise we had to declare that we had change them if the customer complains a few percent magenta in his former two coloured green or a new black in skintones..."

An american standard as OI (SWOP´s) in Europe from a european customer and clear separated colors like cmyk 0-60-80-0 or cmyk 50-30-0-10 is also a reliable hint, that the Designer do not know what is is doing in colormanagement and therefore he is not able to understand a neccissarity for a converting action. If there is really such a, depending from job, color and sujet. But you can get in trouble, see above...

When i get ISOcoatedv2 (FOGRA39) as OI for an uncoated letterhead print mostly it is better to keep it unchanged also, because they had get it produced since years till yet separated in the same way... (I am asking the customer sometimes but not everytime - depending from different factors ...)

When i get FOGRA51 as OI, i devicelink to FOGRA39 (52->47), because we are still producing with old measurement equipement and i did not notice or remember one single situation a customer had complained ...
I do not want to know ho many FOGRA51/52 separations not OI-declared as such or with tagged objects are had been printed with our FOGRA39/47 workflow...

 

[Ulrich]

Sorry, did you mean "ICC tagged objects" in the pdf VS the general ICC used at the document level?
(my English is bad!)

i had read your: "1 ICC embedded" as "only with a declared OutputIntent"...

 

[Dario]

i had read your: "1 ICC embedded" as "only with a declared OutputIntent"...

yes, my bad.

 

[abc]

SWOP if I remember correctly is the default Indesign OI, which explains a lot!

 

[gordo]

IMHO, the problem is not the files are without ICC profiles or that many ICCs are embedded or using ICC profiles without knowing what they are doing nor not asking before for how we'd like it.

The problem is the vendors of authoring applications.

But because it is more profitable for software developers to fix a problem than it is to prevent the problem from happening in the first place the problems continue - so far for some 35 years.

All a document creator should need to know is the final destination of the document (offset, flexo, etc) and possibly the shop it's going to.

We need an ISO production profile embedded in the authoring apps.

 

[chriscozi]

I seem to remember a 'working group' among larger printers that attempted that some ~30 years ago.
Ah, the good old days.

 

[ReproElectroProspero]

Me, reading this thread:

I've been working in print for 15+ years, but have never had to deal with anything more than CMYK values or "keep it this general shade of blue". The closest I come to managing color is trying to get Reflex Blue to print right on a duplicator.

 

[Ulrich]

All a document creator should need to know is the final destination of the document (offset, flexo, etc) and possibly the shop it's going to.

Sorry Gordo, i can not follow you?

And what should they do then with that information?

Waiting for this?:

We need an ISO production profile embedded in the authoring apps.

You mean throwing all ICC-Profiles away (what would be impossible, because pandoras box is open now...) and just implement one single ISO-Profile per Output Intention?

I myself still find the best (and sustainable) entertainment in my profession in colormanagement and PDF-standards and i will not be transformed to a needless staff-member who is dispensable by one more step of automation that happened already in our industry! ;-)

I really love these exciting moments live together with the customer on my side to see the first print of an EPPLE ANIVA Uncoated stock with the just before therefore calibrated plates next to the calibrated screen with the belonging ICC-Profile chosen in the Acrobat Preview.

What else can i shine with like a really professionel, a "king" for a few moments in my life, long knowing that i am nothing as a slave?


resuming for now i would say:

Colormanagement done with ICC-Profiles is all together at the same time:

Controlled predictable production, promise, belief, myth, hurdle and trap

and sometimes not neccessary,

but still fascinating (for me and some others i guess)

The closest I come to managing color is trying to get Reflex Blue to print right on a duplicator.

That is admirable, I know some who fail again and again with that color on a Speedmaster CX102 ...

 

[gordo]

Sorry Gordo, i can not follow you?

And what should they do then with that information?
Waiting for this?:


You mean throwing all ICC-Profiles away (what would be impossible, because pandoras box is open now...) and just implement one single ISO-Profile per Output Intention?

Imagine that in, for example inDesign, there was a drop down menu. The menu would have choices like "Sheetfed Offset", "Web offset", "Flexography" etc. The designer would choose one of those options and the software would automatically modify all the color settings in the document to the appropriate color profile. Or perhaps there could also be a drop down menu that would list the print shops that the designer uses, so he/she might choose the "Oktoberdruck GmbH" profile and the software would automatically modify all the color settings in the document to the appropriate printshop profile.

 

[Ulrich]

Or perhaps there could also be a drop down menu that would list the print shops that the designer uses, so he/she might choose the "Oktoberdruck GmbH" profile and the software would automatically modify all the color settings in the document to the appropriate printshop profile

In fact one of our most loyal customer, a political party, the only one fighting for the environment since decades, has got that settings from me already: After a zoom-session three month ago with their grafic departement and a „how to“ sheet from me send with that settings, some more phone calls later, two of them are using my settings and two not, they are four fellows each working on two Mac‘s and Win‘s (home, office...).

Now i know, i m a bad teacher... ;-)

 

[gordo]

In fact one of our most loyal customer, a political party, the only one fighting for the environment since decades, has got that settings from me already: After a zoom-session three month ago with their grafic departement and a „how to“ sheet from me send with that settings, some more phone calls later, two of them are using my settings and two not, they are four fellows each working on two Mac‘s and Win‘s (home, office...).

Now i know, i m a bad teacher... ;-)

What you did cost you (and your clients) time and money and was only 50% successful.
What I'm suggesting should eliminate all that and be much closer to 100% successful

 

[chriscozi]

Gordo, how can the software companies monetize this?
THAT is the reason it hasn't happened.
If Adobe could get designers and printers to pay up front for just this type of service they would do it.
Hope you copyrighted your idea first!

 

[Ulrich]

What you did cost you (and your clients) time and money and was only 50% successful.
What I'm suggesting should eliminate all that and be much closer to 100% successful

Ahh, my sight looking from an economical point of view regarding succsess:

They had got 4 different greens first, now they get two times the same, double one: an improvement of 100%!

 

[gordo]

Gordo, how can the software companies monetize this?
THAT is the reason it hasn't happened.
If Adobe could get designers and printers to pay up front for just this type of service they would do it.
Hope you copyrighted your idea first!

You are absolutely correct. I actually referenced this dilemma in an earlier post in this thread.
Products are primarily not developed to solve problems - they are primarily developed to make profits. If they cannot be shown to be monetized/make profits then their development does not move forward.
That's also why after some 35 years of "desktop publishing" print shops continue to struggle and waste time and money with the same issues they dealt with 35 years ago.

 

[Dario]

Oh, and please don't forget that every client thinks in their own way, big or small.
I handle PDF files from a global corporation, created by a very large repro house, where they print 5 spot colors to create graphics and images. When I asked them what standard they were working on, they said Fogra39!
...even though Fogra39 is made for CMYK!

That's also why after some 35 years of "desktop publishing" print shops continue to struggle and waste time and money with the same issues they dealt with 35 years ago.

Amen!!

Anyway, you're all right. Software houses are there primarily to make profits.
Very few do it in the right spirit - and 99% of the time they are acquired by the big fishes.
We should come together and collaborate to create something really useful to eliminate problems.
Gordo, your idea is really cool, but you're retired now, right?

has got that settings from me already

Ulrich, could you kindly specify what kind of instructions you gave them?