HP Indigo Deinkable?

[Green Printer]

HP says Indigo is deinkalbe.

The new EN 643 standard for paper for recycling, Indigo printer waste is now also formally “unwanted material” for deinking.



Axel Fischer of INGEDE - the International Association of the Deinking Industry is very well respected in the deinking industry.

There are recyling mills in the US that will not knowingly accept Indigo printed material

Maybe HP Indigo printed materials should go to a plastic recycler. They can recyle the polyethylene film then send the waste paper to a paper recycler.

HP Expands Environmental Sustainability Initiatives with HP Indigo - WhatTheyThink

 

[michaelejahn]

Is this a statement of sorts, or is this a question you want feedback on ?

 

[Green Printer]

Looking for opinions and other view points. HP has way too much riding on the recyclablity of Indigo printed products. If your process has earned unwanted material for recycling that is a giant blow and Greenwashing to the nth degree.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Maybe we should just burn all the waste paper and reclaim the energy.

Growing a tree takes out CO2 from the air and burning it releases it. Zero sum. But energy is gained which we are losing now. Trees are a form of solar energy. The sun provides the energy for tree growth and then the energy can be harvested by burning and making steam to drive a generator.

 

[RGPW17100]

Maybe we should just burn all the waste paper and reclaim the energy.

Growing a tree takes out CO2 from the air and burning it releases it. Zero sum. But energy is gained which we are losing now. Trees are a form of solar energy. The sun provides the energy for tree growth and then the energy can be harvested by burning and making steam to drive a generator.

Pretty sure trees and all green plants produce CO2 at night and then oxygen during the day. There was an earlier thread about the indigo ink not being de inkable. I brought this up to my bosses and they did not want to hear about it. Sometimes being green means you have to turn a deaf ear.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Pretty sure trees and all green plants produce CO2 at night and then oxygen during the day.

Yes, they take up CO2 and give off O2 in the day and the opposite in the night but the amounts are not equal. All the carbon mass of the wood in the tree comes from CO2 in the air. I find that kind of amazing.

 

[pfmagic]

Deinkability of HP Indigo

Deinkability of HP Indigo

HP ink is deinkable. Several recycling plants use out-dated deinking systems that worked well for conventional offset but do not work for water-based inkjet, liquid toners, or water-based flexographic inks. Several studies have been performed at recycling mills with large concentrations of Indigo-printed materials that resulted in Deinkability Scores of Good (the highest rating). I find it curious that the 'Indigo Incident' press release is still prominently displayed on Ingede's site but none of the lab tests, pilot studies or deniability scores have made it on Ingede's site.

 

[Al Ferrari]

That's engineering for you.

Al

 

[jinthebay]

I run a 3500. Don't have much makeready to speak of. And by the end of the day, not a whole lot of waste. Is this really an issue? Besides, how would the end user of printed materials produced from Indigo presses even know that they were produced by Indigos and how / where would they be sending them to be De-inked?

 

[meddington]

Besides, how would the end user of printed materials produced from Indigo presses even know that they were produced by Indigos and how / where would they be sending them to be De-inked?

You've just described why this is an issue. The end user wouldn't possibly know. All materials would be de-inked en masse, and non-comptable material that is not de-inkable could degrade the recycling process, even in small amounts. The studies I've seen weren't entirely unfavorable towards Indigo's liquid toner, but inkjet ink was an issue.

 

[meddington]

Maybe we should just burn all the waste paper and reclaim the energy.

A possibility, but that would reduce the amount of recycled material available, and therefore put more emphasis on the growth of new trees and harvesting of existing trees. This takes a toll on the environment as well.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

A possibility, but that would reduce the amount of recycled material available, and therefore put more emphasis on the growth of new trees and harvesting of existing trees. This takes a toll on the environment as well.

I was trying to be partly facetious but also providing an option. Before a lot of the recycling was being done, trees were being managed like farming. This was especially done in Scandinavia. Trees were harvested and trees were planted. Is farming bad for the environment. I can be if done improperly but if it is to be sustainable it would need to be done properly. Why would you assume harvesting trees is bad for the environment?

What is bad for the environment is harvesting oil and coal since it can not be in a cycle to reclaim CO2 from the air.

I don't know what is done now but in Sweden, incineration was used to recover energy from household waste. Incineration is not popular in North America and the result is large landfills. Trees are a form of solar energy. Solar energy is bad for the environment?

I don't know what is the best solution but I am suggesting that one should not assume some options are bad and reject them out of hand.

One option related to paper waste from printing is "Don't print". Do you like that one? Probably not.

 

[meddington]

Why would you assume harvesting trees is bad for the environment?

Appologies for going off topic, but...
Harvesting existing forests destroys ecosystems and replaces them with monoculture plantation environments more like a corn field. Pre-existing flora and fauna are displaced completely and likely irreversably. Trees replanted are generally genetically modified to grow faster, using significantly more water resources while making the soil more acidic. Moreover, studies suggest that monoculture plantations don't capture as much C02 as restored forests.

I don't know a lot about the impact of incineration, but if the industry currently utilizes recycled material, incinerating it shifts the stress to other areas rather than eliminates it.

One option related to paper waste from printing is "Don't print". Do you like that one? Probably not.

I'm actually quite pragmatic when it comes to the print industry's footprint on the environment, so yes, printing less often is something I support. Options other than print have their own footprint, so I'm an advocate for process control and quality efforts that reduce waste, in addition to finding better ways to manage forest resources. In my opinion the print industry tends to gloss over this issue and pretend it doesn't exist.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Appologies for going off topic, but...
Harvesting existing forests destroys ecosystems and replaces them with monoculture plantation environments more like a corn field. Pre-existing flora and fauna are displaced completely and likely irreversably. Trees replanted are generally genetically modified to grow faster, using significantly more water resources while making the soil more acidic. Moreover, studies suggest that monoculture plantations don't capture as much C02 as restored forests.

I don't know a lot about the impact of incineration, but if the industry currently utilizes recycled material, incinerating it shifts the stress to other areas rather than eliminates it.


I'm actually quite pragmatic when it comes to the print industry's footprint on the environment, so yes, printing less often is something I support. Options other than print have their own footprint, so I'm an advocate for process control and quality efforts that reduce waste, in addition to finding better ways to manage forest resources. In my opinion the print industry tends to gloss over this issue and pretend it doesn't exist.

Your probably right about the environment and if the studies have shown that, well that should be what leads us. Of course if there is no money in forest, no one will maintain them. Maybe that is the way it should be.


I just found this. It might be of interest.

http://www.midwestenergynews.com/2013/10/17/is-burning-garbage-green-in-sweden-theres-little-debate/

 

[Green Printer]

HP ink is deinkable. Several recycling plants use out-dated deinking systems that worked well for conventional offset but do not work for water-based inkjet, liquid toners, or water-based flexographic inks. Several studies have been performed at recycling mills with large concentrations of Indigo-printed materials that resulted in Deinkability Scores of Good (the highest rating). I find it curious that the 'Indigo Incident' press release is still prominently displayed on Ingede's site but none of the lab tests, pilot studies or deniability scores have made it on Ingede's site.

Do you know which recycling mills have done this? What was there yield? Do you know of any mills that have done live production runs?

 

[Deinker]

HP Indigo is NOT deinkable.

HP Indigo is NOT deinkable.

HP ink is deinkable. Several recycling plants use out-dated deinking systems that worked well for conventional offset but do not work for water-based inkjet, liquid toners, or water-based flexographic inks. Several studies have been performed at recycling mills with large concentrations of Indigo-printed materials that resulted in Deinkability Scores of Good (the highest rating). I find it curious that the 'Indigo Incident' press release is still prominently displayed on Ingede's site but none of the lab tests, pilot studies or deniability scores have made it on Ingede's site.

Sorry, I just accidentally saw this thread today. No, Indigo ElectroInk is not deinkable. Even in small amounts it is a potent source of ink specks in the deinking process for new graphic paper or even toilet paper. And the deinking systems are not outdated at all, Mr. pfmagic. On the contrary, the one system where it worked once in very small amounts, that is inefficient and economically as well as ecologically far away from being an example. There recycled pulp (not paper) of a very high brightness is produced for users wanting paper as bright as fresh fiber but labelled "100 % recycled". They could rather take fresh fiber and recycle it afterwards, but that's their decision. The plant has been bankrupt and sold more than once.

I do not know of any deinking plant that is state of the art technology and can process Indigo prints without problems. That is because Indigo is a cohesive polyethylene plastic film, a lamination rather than a printing process. The only liquid toner that is good deinkable yet is that of Xeikon's Trillium technology. This is polyester, it's brittle and as good deinkable as dry toners have always been.

'None of the lab tests, pilot studies' has made it to INGEDE's website because these are irrelevant or unproven marketing claims that have nothing to do with reality in a deinking plant. Some people might call that greenwashing. There have been a few trials at the French paper mill mentioned above, that, again, produces market pulp of very high brightness with some special equipment making it most inefficient due to high losses. No example for a standard deinking plant at all. And even that mill used only small amounts for a very short period of time -- and they have never offered to accept Indigo printer waste beyond that trial. And they probably learned from the trial that they better not do. Also, the recent (Dec 2013) claims about results of a pilot plant trial are unproven claims yet. HP fails to present the data, they just sent a headline around the world via their PR agency. The data underlying these claims are announced to be presented at a conference coming up half a year later, now in the middle of May. Then we will discuss the relevance of this trial which might just prove that it is difficult to simulate the behaviour of Indigo prints in the lab. Who will then report about this discussion? Will HP run an expensive PR campaign again, stating that the discussion revealed some constraints to their original claim?

We have had the accident in the mill that you referred to, we do have more recent occurences of high dirt speck rates from a deinking plant in France and from a board mill (deinking for white top layer) in Germany. What else would you need? Find an experimental environment just far enough off reality that the results suit HP? Then this still has nothing to to with everyday life in a standard deinking plant. HP's Indigo inks have not changed, and the world begins to learn that Indigo is a wonderful technology but developed in times when sustainability of the whole paper value chain was not an issue.

If you have any question feel free to contact me through our website, we have nothing to hide.
Axel Fischer
INGEDE
INGEDE - the International Association of the Deinking Industry

 

[Deinker]

I run a 3500. Don't have much makeready to speak of. And by the end of the day, not a whole lot of waste. Is this really an issue? Besides, how would the end user of printed materials produced from Indigo presses even know that they were produced by Indigos and how / where would they be sending them to be De-inked?

Hm. I know of photobook printers that have significant amounts of printer waste, with all the Indigo-specific cleaning and calibration sheets adding to the usual damaged stuff. You're right, the end users will not know. But printers at least in Europe are advised to keep Indigo separate from other printer waste. It is not accepted for deinking, just for corrugated board.

 

[Mark Flanders]

Old post, I know, but I couldn't resist. -- Putting the CO2 question aside... if I convert a 60 year old tree into paper, and then burn the paper to make electricity (that I then use to make microwave popcorn on Sunday night)...it is true that the universe contains the same amount of mass/energy, but we have converted high quality into low quality. The tree is now a bunch of disappated heat. Oops. We are currently conveting much of the high quality resources into low quality ones. This is an unsustainable process.

Maybe we should just burn all the waste paper and reclaim the energy.

Growing a tree takes out CO2 from the air and burning it releases it. Zero sum. But energy is gained which we are losing now. Trees are a form of solar energy. The sun provides the energy for tree growth and then the energy can be harvested by burning and making steam to drive a generator.

 

[Green Printer]

Old post, I know, but I couldn't resist. -- Putting the CO2 question aside... if I convert a 60 year old tree into paper, and then burn the paper to make electricity (that I then use to make microwave popcorn on Sunday night)...it is true that the universe contains the same amount of mass/energy, but we have converted high quality into low quality. The tree is now a bunch of disappated heat. Oops. We are currently conveting much of the high quality resources into low quality ones. This is an unsustainable process.

Mark how do you recycle your Indigo waste?

 

[Mark Flanders]

Mark how do you recycle your Indigo waste?

Greetings,

Great thread. Having read through the comments above, I am reluctant to jump in like a know-it-all. Having said that, I work in a factory with 3 HP indigo WEB presses and 12 HP Indigo sheet fed presses. I am a certified HP tech, but I don't work for HP. I do sit on the sustainability committee, so I would be interested in knowing the truth of the matter.
So, the short answer is we recycle many tons of Indigo paper waste and have done so for several years. The waste is a mix of printed and unprinted, but it is mostly printed. It is not out of the question that the recycling paper company hasn't noticed the issue, or that they're sorting/mixing in some way we don't know about, but for all extents and purposes, we just put it in the bin and away it goes. They pay us for it, in fact. I believe that Indigo printed paper is probalby more troublesome than other forms of printing, but I will have to have a discussion with the paper recycling company, and have them talk to their mill about the issue. Maybe there is some quiet workaround going on, who knows.
I am curious/skeptical about the description of Indigo ink as "cohesive polyethylene plastic film, a lamination rather than a printing process." in the post above. I wonder if the sample used wasn't actually laminated. I can imagine that would cause some problems. Indigo ink is made of very fine particles with conductivity, suspended in oil, and adhered to the sheet with heat and pressure. One of the early complaints about Indigo inks was poor adhesion...meaning it got scratched off in the mail... so the laminate description doesn't seem right.
With respect for all, and keeping the end in mind... (a sustainable future!)

Mark