I.Mer inker. Anyone want to comment on their experience with this inker.

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The I.Mer inker is an interesting concept and has some advantages even if IMO it is not the ultimate solution to inking.

It is not a new system since it has been available for over thirty years but it seems to be recently promoted for offset presses in North America.

Here is their link.

Printing Automation Systems-I.Mer Co., Ltd-IPC SYSTEM

It is also being marketed by Timsons in the US

IPC – Divided Dutor – Remote Ink Control System

I am curious if there is anyone on this forum who would like to comment on how this system has worked for them. Pros and Cons.

Thanks for any comments.
 
I noticed recently One particular company who manufactures pressroom equipment, products and systems is now offering this system.
Since their philosophy is to reduce - reuse - save, and they implemented their systems throughout many north American print facilities, possibly worldwide as well. I'd imagine they have a fair handle on the I.Mer system, combined with it's pros/cons.
Looking at the video on their website, it looks an interesting kit although the particular video they show doesn't divulge much information.
I'd like to see what the segmented ducter roller looks like after months or years of use, in particular how easy is it switching from a dark PMS blue or reflex blue that needs heavy ink film on rollers to achieve density to a light pms colour or yellow with out any contamination from the ducted roller grooves.

Their video also shows the remaining ink in the duct being dragged under the blade during the cleaning cycle. Where does this go? One would assume you can remove the ink prior to the cleaning cycle to ensure ink isn't being wasted.

Any system that gives greater ink feed accuracy over the life of a press when compared to the traditional ink duct system is a plus.
 
I noticed recently One particular company who manufactures pressroom equipment, products and systems is now offering this system.
Since their philosophy is to reduce - reuse - save, and they implemented their systems throughout many north American print facilities, possibly worldwide as well. I'd imagine they have a fair handle on the I.Mer system, combined with it's pros/cons.
Looking at the video on their website, it looks an interesting kit although the particular video they show doesn't divulge much information.
I'd like to see what the segmented ducter roller looks like after months or years of use, in particular how easy is it switching from a dark PMS blue or reflex blue that needs heavy ink film on rollers to achieve density to a light pms colour or yellow with out any contamination from the ducted roller grooves.

Their video also shows the remaining ink in the duct being dragged under the blade during the cleaning cycle. Where does this go? One would assume you can remove the ink prior to the cleaning cycle to ensure ink isn't being wasted.

Any system that gives greater ink feed accuracy over the life of a press when compared to the traditional ink duct system is a plus.

There is a scrapper blade and tray underneath the ink fountain roller which collect the majority of the ink that was in the fountain. It seems a small amount ink goes with the plastic film that get wound up onto a roll.

Not sure if the scrapper and tray is such a good idea. I have seen press operators empty an ink fountain quite quickly. this system still requires someone to empty the tray. Also this system would get contaminated ink going back to the ink fountain in the same way as with a conventional ductor system.

The best feature that I can see with this system is the fact that no ink is supplied at the zero setting condition. Where I worked in the early 90's, a great method was developed to set the zero set point on a web press. The immediate result was about a 20% reduction in set up waste.

I would expect the I.Mer system to benefit from that capability. It should also benefit with consistency in low coverage. Those benefits are good but I can't yet see how it can justify the expense. What kind of ROI are people expecting?

I would hope operators who have used the system will comment. They can provide sometimes the most interesting reviews. :) Like the messy issues you referred to.

I hope managers don't respond, since they tend to lie about the performance especially if they bought the system. :)
 
I.Mer segmented inking system has IPC or Ink Preset Control, AFC or automatic fountain cleaning, and ACC or automatic ink changer. IPC's component is AR or area reading. Timsons and Amerikal are the exclusive North, Central, and South American marketing, sales and engineering contract agents. The I.Mer systems have been installed in metal deco printing equipment for many years and proven easy to maintain and robust at high speeds. There are no ink keys or ink blades. The inking system requires a motorized ink ball and a silenced distributor roller. The ink required in the ink fountain is referred to as an ink sausage and it is not necessary to fill the ink well up with ink. The principle of the inking system is simple. How much ink does the 1% dot need on the printing plate? Where is the 1% dot on the plate? Why then open up a continuous ink flow that necessitates higher water settings to control ink films that are not necessary? This has been proven when printing energy curable inks, the I.Mer system reduces ink misting by 95% while allowing the press speed to double. It is easy to calculate the ROI and justification for this system.
 
I.Mer segmented inking system has IPC or Ink Preset Control, AFC or automatic fountain cleaning, and ACC or automatic ink changer. IPC's component is AR or area reading. Timsons and Amerikal are the exclusive North, Central, and South American marketing, sales and engineering contract agents.

It is easy to calculate the ROI and justification for this system.

Thanks for your comments. Since you sell this product, I am hoping some of your customers will comment on the performance and ROI.

It is always good to see new thinking being applied. Mechanical modifications to the press that result in improved performance, show that the process is not all chemically based as some want to believe. I have been saying this for a very long time. I welcome the change in thinking this product might bring.

There are a lot of mechanical modification that can improve performance, so the question then becomes, which ones are the most beneficial.
 
Agreed Erik however the ink must be stable at thin films and the fountain solution cannot act as
a solvent. Chemistry can alter the geometry of a press and the substrate. Chemistry is equally important to lithographic offset print manufacturing.
 
Fundamental Chemistry of Lithography

Fundamental Chemistry of Lithography

Hello fellow Lithographers,

Even with the present day Mechanics of Ink Transportation, chemistry is fundamental to

Lithographic Printing - without it lithography would not work.

a) The chemisry of F.S/Ink (micro-emulsion) only comes into operation

at the inking roller/plate nips.

b) The interplay of inconsistent materials and variations involved in the

printing process lead to many different interactions.


Regards, Alois


A PDF that I hope you will find of interest and value.
 

Attachments

  • img Litho Parameters001.pdf
    195.2 KB · Views: 212
Hello fellow Lithographers,

Even with the present day Mechanics of Ink Transportation, chemistry is fundamental to

Lithographic Printing - without it lithography would not work.

a) The chemisry of F.S/Ink (micro-emulsion) only comes into operation

at the inking roller/plate nips.

b) The interplay of inconsistent materials and variations involved in the

printing process lead to many different interactions.


Regards, Alois


A PDF that I hope you will find of interest and value.

So I am assuming that from your perspective, the I.Mer inker will make no difference at all to the ink water balance issue and that it is a waste of money. To some extent, I tend to agree with that.

But if you think a mechanical modification can make a performance improvement, then I would also agree with that view too.

The real question is related to the type of mechanical modification and how much it will actually make an improvement. This I suspect is a question that you are not able to understand, since there are no PDFs to explain it to you and you have no experience in any such new modifications.

I expect that there are some performance improvements with the I.Mer system and that they are irrespective of the chemistry. I also know there is more potential for improvements with a number of other mechanical modifications.

So I am still hoping that someone who has operated the I.Mer system will comment. In the past I have also asked if someone would comment on performance of the digital inkers such as used by Goss and now QuadTech. So far no one has commented.

The digital inker is also a mechanical modification which has been running in the field for decades in the newspaper industry so there should be feedback from that group of operators on consistency etc. Their performance improvement is also irrespective of chemistry.
 
There looks to be several advantages with the I.Mer system over the current system sheetfed presses utilise.
One of the most important seems to be a zero point. Not caused by the ink blade to the ink fountain roller but through the way that the segmented ink ductor roller is timed to contact the ink fountain roller relative to image area. If there isn't image area in a particular area, that particular doctor roller segment doesn't make contact with the ink duct roller.

Eric, your system could well achieve similar results but simply utilising a different approach. With your system though, there is always a forced constant ink supply isn't there?
Irrelevant to image area or no image area on the plate, the entire length of the ink fountain will be supplying ink at some ratio regardless of there being any image area in any particular area. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Reading through the posts relating to your invention, all beta testing seems to been aimed around constant ink density regardless of the dampening solution flow to the plate/rollers, hence the forced constant ink supply.
Within your beta testing have you conducted any studies relating to ink film thickness on the rollers and compared the findings during a state of normal and high dampening solution feed ?
Ink density remaining stable throughout various dampening solution feed rates is irrelevant if either of the following is effected, dot structure, trapping, dry back, mottle, paper stretch, fit, drying, scuffing.
I've only been printing for 15 years, but I find it impossible to believe that running a heavier dampening solution flow rate then what is required even when combined with a system such as yours - Forced constant ink feed, has no detrimental effects.

To me one of the most critical points that needed fixing from the current systems in place was a true zero value combined with an ink feed rate that could be repeated across the life of the press.
 
There looks to be several advantages with the I.Mer system over the current system sheetfed presses utilise.
One of the most important seems to be a zero point. Not caused by the ink blade to the ink fountain roller but through the way that the segmented ink ductor roller is timed to contact the ink fountain roller relative to image area. If there isn't image area in a particular area, that particular doctor roller segment doesn't make contact with the ink duct roller.

Eric, your system could well achieve similar results but simply utilising a different approach. With your system though, there is always a forced constant ink supply isn't there?
Irrelevant to image area or no image area on the plate, the entire length of the ink fountain will be supplying ink at some ratio regardless of there being any image area in any particular area. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Reading through the posts relating to your invention, all beta testing seems to been aimed around constant ink density regardless of the dampening solution flow to the plate/rollers, hence the forced constant ink supply.
Within your beta testing have you conducted any studies relating to ink film thickness on the rollers and compared the findings during a state of normal and high dampening solution feed ?
Ink density remaining stable throughout various dampening solution feed rates is irrelevant if either of the following is effected, dot structure, trapping, dry back, mottle, paper stretch, fit, drying, scuffing.
I've only been printing for 15 years, but I find it impossible to believe that running a heavier dampening solution flow rate then what is required even when combined with a system such as yours - Forced constant ink feed, has no detrimental effects.

To me one of the most critical points that needed fixing from the current systems in place was a true zero value combined with an ink feed rate that could be repeated across the life of the press.

I agree Lukew, the I.Mer zero set feature is a big advantage over existing ink feed systems.

Your view of my system is a bit faulty. With my system, zero setting is obtained by setting the ink key to a point at or less than the specific gap on my blade. If all the ink keys are set to or less than this reference value, then NO ink goes into the roller train. If you want 10% ink, then just set the ink key to that value. If you want 50%, then set the ink key to 50%. You still have to set the ink feed rate of the ink key to the ink required by the image.

The fact that in tests the water setting was greatly increased was just to demonstrate that ink feed is the fundamental factor to density control and not water. So I also agree that setting the water to a suitable value is important for quality of the print but not for the amount of ink printed and therefore the solid density.

In the tests with UV inks at Drent Goebel (2004) when printing on paper, the change in dot gain was looked at for different levels of water, low and high, and surprisingly it did not change much. This was a surprise. I am not saying that this will be the case for all inks and substrates but it was interesting to see. When we printed on plastic at high water levels, there was a clear deterioration in the quality of the printed dots. The high water levels that were used in those tests would never be approached in normal operations. The plate was soaking wet.

I also agree that repeatability of ink feed is very important over a long time and over short times. My system transforms the conventional open ink fountain system into basically a constant displacement pumping system. One pump per key. It does not look like a pump but it performs like a pump.

I hope this clears up your understanding of my approach.

I still would like someone who has experience running the I.Mer system to comment. I think it would be good to hear about their experience.
 
ITB does not have the ability for variable ink feeding for a light film in any area. The ITB is always pushing ink on any setting past the zero point. Komori's have variable ducting timing, this still poses a problem with a heavy coverage area and a very light coverage area on the same sheet.
With the I.Mer you can vary the duct timing for the light coverage areas as well as the heavy coverage area on the same sheet. I.Mer segmented variable ducting gives control in all areas and coverage.
This function is beyond the realm of the ITB. There fore in my opinion the ITB is not worth the effort or investment.
 
ITB does not have the ability for variable ink feeding for a light film in any area. The ITB is always pushing ink on any setting past the zero point. Komori's have variable ducting timing, this still poses a problem with a heavy coverage area and a very light coverage area on the same sheet.
With the I.Mer you can vary the duct timing for the light coverage areas as well as the heavy coverage area on the same sheet. I.Mer segmented variable ducting gives control in all areas and coverage.
This function is beyond the realm of the ITB. There fore in my opinion the ITB is not worth the effort or investment.

You don't understand the concept. What can I say to someone who can't understand.

This tread is about the I.Mer system. Since you think you can understand these issues, I would like to know what you think the ROI is for the I.Mer system. Where will the saving come from? I am sure there will be some but where and how much?
 
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Eric, it is great that you had the determination to bring to light your concept of what could be a large step ahead of the current system presses utilise today.
I'm in no way knocking what you have developed, nor do I have enough in-depth knowledge of how your concept works to criticise. I will say though that your system would have to have a true zero setting that can be replicated over the life of a press. Not relying on any form of ink key blade to ink ball as you then fall back to the cons of whats currently utilised, as blades wear out settings alter.

As Green print said in his post, the ability to have total ink feed control from light coverage area's through to heavy coverage is critical.

It's strange that the manufacturers still insist on shipping presses out with the out dated system currently in use. They have pumped so much development into designs that reduce make ready times/monitor print quality etc, but one fundamental area that still causes ink feed inconsistency's has not been altered.

The I.Mer system at this point looks as if it could well be heads and shoulders above whats standard.
 
Eric, it is great that you had the determination to bring to light your concept of what could be a large step ahead of the current system presses utilise today.
I'm in no way knocking what you have developed, nor do I have enough in-depth knowledge of how your concept works to criticise. I will say though that your system would have to have a true zero setting that can be replicated over the life of a press. Not relying on any form of ink key blade to ink ball as you then fall back to the cons of whats currently utilised, as blades wear out settings alter.

As Green print said in his post, the ability to have total ink feed control from light coverage area's through to heavy coverage is critical.

It's strange that the manufacturers still insist on shipping presses out with the out dated system currently in use. They have pumped so much development into designs that reduce make ready times/monitor print quality etc, but one fundamental area that still causes ink feed inconsistency's has not been altered.

The I.Mer system at this point looks as if it could well be heads and shoulders above whats standard.

Lukew, of course there are a lot of issues that are needed to be provided in a concept for it to be eventually successful. These issues are both theoretical and practical.

In the case of the ITB, the theory of what was causing ink water balance and its related density variation was something I developed back in the late 1980's. The ITB was a direct outcome of trying to think of a way to easily test this theory.

So the first prototype, which was quite crude, was tested on a press in 1991 and was successful in confirming the theory but it was certainly not in a condition to be a production technology. Later in the 1990's, I revised the ITB concept so it would be simpler, less expensive and more effective so it had the potential to be a production technology that could be even an after market modification to an offset press.

So please understand, the theory came first and the technical approach came later. When one has a valid theory, then one can develop technology that will have predictable performance and this theory can also evaluate other new concepts and have a good idea how they will perform before they are even tested.

The ITB is only one of many possible ways to solve the problem of inconsistent ink feed and the causes of ink water balance and its related density variation but it is a very low cost way to do it. More expensive methods I can think of might be better but for practical reasons they would not justify the cost at this time.

So when I look at the I.Mer concept, I already have a good idea of how it will perform. My view is that basically the ITB will out perform it in a fundamental way at a much reduced cost.

In the ITB, ideally the blade does not touch the ink fountain roller. For practical reasons, the blade will have small points of contact with the ink fountain roller that are used to maintain a consistent gap. Wear should not be an issue since the blade pressure against the ink fountain roller is low.

Also, with the ITB, there is never any contact between the roller train and the ink fountain roller due to a gap between the ink fountain roller and the pickup roller. For this and the above reason, a zero set will be consistent and predictable but yes it does require calibration. Ink feed from the zero point will be consistent and proportional from low coverage to high coverage.

I find it strange that the industry can accept all kinds of imperfect technologies but with my concept, there is the expectation that perfection needs to be met before it would be take seriously. The real issue is not about perfection but about how much improvement and at what cost.

I welcome the I.Mer concept even though I think it is lacking in specific areas of performance. It still shows that there are other ideas that can help the process. An industry that has accepted an existing technology that is over 160 years old as being state of he art, such as the existing ductor, is an industry that has not been able to think too deeply about these problems.

So yes, I still have to comment on these issues because I am still the only one who thinks this way and if I stop, nothing for sure will happen and digital printing will take over from offset.

So I am happy to hear about the performance of the I. Mer concept. It helps people realize that changes can have positive effects. The same goes for the Anicolor press. It now demonstrates that offset lithography can have very short makereadies. I don't think either system is the right direction but they demonstrate potential to a group of people who are not so good at imagining what can be done.

I would like to see more experimentation on new ideas. Let the best ideas win.
 
Erik
No matter what the comments you will always add a twist to promote the ITB.

And the solution to the ink water balance problem.

You seem to be motivated more to see me personally fail than to advance the potential of the process. A strange motivation.
 
So I am happy to hear about the performance of the I. Mer concept. It helps people realize that changes can have positive effects. The same goes for the Anicolor press. It now demonstrates that offset lithography can have very short makereadies. I don't think either system is the right direction but they demonstrate potential to a group of people who are not so good at imagining what can be done.

.

Praise then degrade. Why make any comment?
 
Praise then degrade. Why make any comment?

Let's hear from users of the I.Mer system to find out the details of its performance and how they justified the ROI.

Do you have that kind of knowledge and if you do, will you share it please. For people to say it works great and that is easily has an ROI, does not really say anything. How does it improve on waste and how does it pay for itself. That is what I am curious about.

I assume people don't buy technology expecting that there will be no improvement. Did the sales hype live up to the actual working result? As most people know, just because a salesperson says that the ROI will be easy does not always mean that for the specific customers situation, that will be proven to be true.
 
**********

**********

Hello Erik,

Despite your repeated requests for information from "operatives" that have experience of
I-Mer and Goss digital inking systems, due to de-skilling in the lithographic printing industry
you are unlikely to receive any replies. In my opinion many of these "operatives" ( they are not printers)
do not read or follow technical forums such as this one, "operatives" now employed in the industry
can barely undersand the concept of -- Ink/Water Balance.

Salient Point: your oft quote about Goss Digital Inking System being used for "decades" 99.9% of those
decades the system was used to pump - Mineral Oil Based Letterpress News Ink, very different
to a high viscous offset ink.


Regards, Alois
 

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