I want to try GCR software but...

[Hopkins Printing]

I need some ideas on how can I evaluate/compare the software's performance and abilities against how we've printed all these years without a GCR product.

For those of you who have implemented a GCR software solution, could you give me some tips on how you evaluated/trialed/justified the cost associated with the software? Understand that I am aware of what the benefits of GCR which sound great. It's just that the boss wants to see production numbers.

I want to look at GMG and CGS' products.

Thanks,
Jon Morgan
Hopkins Printing

 

[gordo]

I need some ideas on how can I evaluate/compare the software's performance and abilities against how we've printed all these years without a GCR product.

There's a great utility for qualifying ink savings based on your images here: TGLC - PerfX Device Link� - ICC DeviceLink Profile - Ink Saving - CMYK Conversion - ICC Device Link Profile

Both of your choices mean that your files exit your workflow to get processed as opposed to being integral with your workflow. I assume that you've made a conscious decision to go that route - some would argue that's not an optimal solution.
Basically all the systems use a device link profile to do a cmyk to cmyk (if I'm wrong I'm sure I'll be quickly corrected)
So, as a starter, some things to consider, questions to ask:
What is the basis for the device link profile? Your specific presswork or an abstract print condition (e.g. SWOP) that you may, or may not be hitting.
Heavy GCR heavily depends on the quality of your black printer/press unit. Are your presses capable of actually using heavy GCR? What press side support does your GCR supplier provide, or are you on your own if you have issues?
The target is to reduce chromatic inks by replacing with achromatic black while maintaining the same appearance.
So, How do the different solutions handle single and two color art (vector and raster)
A graphic like this will help you understand how they deal (or don't) with this issue

It also includes gray balance and brown balance targets.
Also include raster images that are: high key (lots of pastels) midrange, dark, heavily saturated, and neutral.
Include a few images that have been separated from RGB to CMYK using Adobe's default settings, and the same images separated according to a spec (e.g. SWOP, SNAP, etc.)
Go on press with your test form using the same files/form as you would have printed it in the past, and with the processing. Ideally the original form plus the competing systems on the same form on press at the same time and printed to the numbers not trying to match a proof nor trying to make the presswork look "good."

best, gordo

 

[Louis Dery]

I need some ideas on how can I evaluate/compare the software's performance and abilities against how we've printed all these years without a GCR product.

For those of you who have implemented a GCR software solution, could you give me some tips on how you evaluated/trialed/justified the cost associated with the software? Understand that I am aware of what the benefits of GCR which sound great. It's just that the boss wants to see production numbers.

I want to look at GMG and CGS' products.

Thanks,
Jon Morgan
Hopkins Printing

Hi Jon,
About "production numbers" I can report an easy 26% ink savings from real press runs on web press. It was not evaluated by theorical numbers! The client had recorded the ink tanker weight for each ink, before and after the press run test, comparing half of the job printed without GCR and the other half with our GCR devicelink profile.
Implementation time? Half an hour, directly IN-RIP of existing compatible workflow (ex.rinergy)

Also, like suggested by Gordo, you can use our free PerfX Image Ink software to compare a before and after TIFF image, with complete report of CMYK % differences.

Hope this help!

Louis Dery
TGLC inc.
TGLC Solutions de Gestion de Couleur et Contrôle Couleur: Logiciels PerfX, Formation, Intégration, Certification

 

[Hopkins Printing]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies. Ink savings is certainly a good thing. I am wondering if there is a way to benchmark/compare the benefits of GCR in the press room beyond just ink savings? If so, how could I go about it?

Thanks so much!
Jon

 

[michaelejahn]

Make ready time reduction and less ink

Make ready time reduction and less ink

Hi Jon,

There is a webinar today, December 12th at 1:00pm EST related to this subject - if you can't make it, contact me and I will review the destails with you...

IQ Colour, Inc.

But basically - there are several other benefits for using less ink - that is, more of the less expensive black ink (about 80 cents per lb) in place of more expensive CM and Y ink (2 bucks per pound) - another benefit many find is faster make ready (the time between that first sheet and one you can save) - which (of course) makes for less waster paper (saving you money there as well)

If you have your process control house in order already, this is indeed a great thing, and if not, you press men may not like that you have taken a bit of the "we can fix this by messing with the ink key settings" away from them - so - beware of that - there is not a lot of movement that can be accomplished with these types of separations.

The IQColour approach is a bit different than GCR - that is, we do not use an ICC profile and we do not pass the images/object through LAB, but use a proprietary method of Dr. Ed Grangers design.

You can read more about that by visting the resources and white papers section of the web site.

Michael Jahn
IQColour

http://twitter.com/michaelejahn

 

[Louis Dery]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies. Ink savings is certainly a good thing. I am wondering if there is a way to benchmark/compare the benefits of GCR in the press room beyond just ink savings? If so, how could I go about it?

Thanks so much!
Jon

Hi Jon,
A way to compare is to print same test page/image converted with and wthout GCR side by side.
Then, check how much time it takes to the pressman to get color right for each one.
Then, print Black with density variation (higher and lower than standard) to the the effect on the page made with GCR. If the GCR is done well, you should still get good reproduction. If the GCR is not good, you will see ghost effect (at lower black density) or lost of details in shadows (higher Black density).

This is a simple test but it shows the strenght of the GCR alogorithm approach.

Louis

 

[chiefinspector gadget]

GCR - experience from commercial printing - heatset

GCR - experience from commercial printing - heatset

I have implemented a solution from CGS - InkSaver, in several printing plants in Scandinavia (commercial heatset printing). CGS Inksaver has state of the art conversion - the most exact conversion - lowest Delta E.

Often on the surface, problems as bad grey balance, low density, big diffence of the printed sheet compared to the certified proof, can be missing GCR, and/but when coming in dept analyzing with the problem, the key problem can be: fountain, inks, blankets, insufficient knowledge of the printer and so on. But when your are sure, that investing in such a software creates value for your company, the start to analyze the current situation very detailed - my hire and external and objektive consultant. When you are 100% clear and you have defined the target and success criteria, then start an evaluation in praxis - in prepress and in printing. In prepress check the inkcoverage before and after in the dark areas/ sensitive grey balance areas - Acrobat Pro is a perfect tool. Remember to make softproofing in that step (simulate the profile - f.ex. ISOcoated.icc. Check before and after side by side. There should not be a visual difference, but when measuring there should be a difference. Make a test run on the press - without any optimization - consisting of some of the images that relates to your problems - my suggestion: clear blue skies, light and dark greybalances, reds, greens and so on. When reaching the target, stop and note your densities and make some notes of your opinion at that stage. Afterwords put the optimized data on press. Try to reach your target again - but now you should be able to go further and se some improvements. Faster start up, grey balance should be reached much more easily despite higher ink density. Forinstance when you have the greybalance with magenta at D1.32 and increases it to 1.44 - you won't see a change in the grey balance.

That's was in short the way I did it. The costumers -> more satified, the printer -> easy to print, the owner of the printhouse -> smiling, because of increased productivity and reduced usage og ink (very complicated to proove).

 

[mallomarx]

Trying GCR software

Trying GCR software

Hi Jon,
Ink reduction software is fairly easy to test. To perform a test, I would strongly recommend getting your press into a known condition and optimizing that condition for your test. GCR software typically needs to make assumptions about your press's behavior and having a good characterization will deliver better results. Once you do this, it becomes a matter of assembling the test form with a few before&after images side-by-side to determine if the resulting quality meets your standards.

In general, the quality of most commercially-available systems are very good. From a color perspective, most will provide you with results that are very close to the original file colorimetry (probably closer than the variability of your press). I would keep in mind the flexibility of the solution, what type of PDF-handling technology the system uses, and of course...price.

Good luck. Feel free to contact me off line if I can be of any help.

Marc Levine
Color Management Group
[email protected]

 

[Louis Dery]

I would keep in mind the flexibility of the solution, what type of PDF-handling technology the system uses, and of course...price.

Good luck. Feel free to contact me off line if I can be of any help.

Marc Levine
Color Management Group
[email protected]

Hi Marc,
What would be the ideal flexibility of the solution (ink saving) from your point of vue?

Louis Dery
TGLC inc.

 

[otherthoughts]

Gray Component replacement does indeed save on ink pricing. I believe the previous comments have addressed the main issues. The only issues remaining are the dry-back of the GCR test sheets/cut-offs, and the overall gloss of the product with GCR.

 

[mattbeals]

Alwan is a great prduct to look at. It will even calculate the ink savings and show you a live ROI. I think that Alwan is even guaranteeing the ROI or your money back. Let me know if you'd like more info and I'll dig up what I can for you.

 

[2ndShiftProblemSolver]

Call your Agfa rep

Call your Agfa rep

Jon,

You are running Apogee Prepress correct? Call your Agfa sales rep and ask about a trial license for InkSave. You'll have to pay for the tech's time to come set it up, profile your press, etc. but you will be able to get a trial license to run and test as you see fit then if you decide to buy, the profile and setup are done, you just pay for the license. Running InkSave within Apogee is like their integrated proofing, the file never leaves home so no other system has to interpret your files, InkSave takes place in the renderer without adding processing time and you don't have to add another piece of hardware.

 

[2ndShiftProblemSolver]

As you probably already know, you will see shorter make-readies and less paper waste due to getting up to color faster and having more detail in the black which creates great visual pop and helps to hide mis-registration in CMY. Shorter drying times and less need for offset powder are additional pressroom benefits of GCR, and of course you'll probably save some money on ink too.

Again, I say call Agfa / your dealer and discuss an InkSave trial then create your own test forms and run them in your environment and see.

 

[mattbeals]

If nothing else if you have a device link profile with GCR being used you can use Callas pdfToolbox 4 to apply the device link profile to the images, vector objects or both. That's a quick way to test the waters before getting too heavily invested in testing InkDrop.

 

[Louis Dery]

Jon,

You are running Apogee Prepress correct? Call your Agfa sales rep and ask about a trial license for InkSave. You'll have to pay for the tech's time to come set it up, profile your press, etc. but you will be able to get a trial license to run and test as you see fit then if you decide to buy, the profile and setup are done, you just pay for the license. Running InkSave within Apogee is like their integrated proofing, the file never leaves home so no other system has to interpret your files, InkSave takes place in the renderer without adding processing time and you don't have to add another piece of hardware.

Can you tell me what is the difference between buying InkSave or just have a good Devicelink creation software and use the devicelink profile in the Render?
What are the (other) benefits of InkSave?

Louis

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

InkSave will look at the total Ink INCLUDING overprints, and try to preserve/simulate the overprinted look/feel but with less ink. Most device link ink savers and or servers will do the ink saving before flattening and overprinting. Correct me if I'm wrong.