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ICC target reference values (ECI2002, Lab aim values)?

Robert81

New member
I hope there is some colour expert who could explain bit more beneath the surface or give a link for good article, book or web page where would be explained how they determined the reference values (Lab aim values) for the various ICC profiling target charts? Also how they came up with these patches on the targets how they decided which colours to use, how many and so on (IT8.7/3 ECI2002, IT8.7-2 Reflective/Transmissive and GretagMacbeth Color CheckerDC)? I just wanna know to improve my knowledge and understanding of colour management. I know the basics about the standards like Fogra, ISO, GRACoL etc. It's my understanding that for example FOGRA39 is characterization data not actual reference aim value for the ECI2002 target?

For example how they came up with the reference lab value for 100% yellow or red M100% Y100%?

Cheers!!
 
I'm not an expert but...

With ISO and Fogra, most of their data was collected by looking at hundreds of printers and taking an average of what was the average "reasonable" results. With that in mind, it lets you know that you are following standards that should be achievable in majority of applications if you use equipment/supplies up to standard.

That is a simple view of it, but it helps me stay reasonable in my expectations
 
Some basics:

CMYK testcharts such as the ECI2002, IT8.7/4, etc. do not have "target" values per se. The charts simply have reference CMYK values....there's no L*a*b* aim values unless you're speaking of a specific "dataset" or "characterization data". For example, GRACoL2006_Coated1 represents a dataset that uses the IT8.7/4 CMYK format.....for each CMYK value, there's an associated L*a*b* value.....but the IT8.7/4 does not have any L*a*b* data associated with it until it's populated with actual measurement data taken from a press, an inkjet printer or some other CMYK device. So, again, testcharts themselves do not have any measuerment data associated with them at all....if they did, they cross over to being referred to as *characterization data*.

IT8.7/2 reflective and transmissive "charts" are different. These represent a physical target (a print or transparency/slide) that have been measured using a spectro and DO have L*a*b* (or XYZ) measurement values associated with each patch....but there's no DEVICE values like in the case of an RGB or CMYK testchart.....we scan or photograph the target to see what device values the camera or scanner produces in response to the L*a*b* measurements of the chart itself.

Or to put it all another way.....

OUTPUT targets like the ECI2002, IT8.7/4, et al........We print/output the specific device values (CMYK in this case) in the testchart file (probably a TIFF or PDF) and then measure the result to see how are device responds to those specific CMYK values.....from that combined data (CMYK+L*a*b*), we can then use it to build an ICC profile of that device. In other words, we have NO IDEA about the L*a*b* of this device until we ask it to print some CMYK values that we give it.....what comes out or prints is measured and then used to create a profile.

INPUT targets like the IT8.7/2 and Hutchcolor HCT targets are just the opposite.....we're actually STARTING with a physical (printed photographically usually) target of known L*a*b* values and then either scanning or photographing it to find out what RGB values the device in question (scanner/camera) produces. From this data (L*a*b* + RGB) we can then build a profile that characterizes this capture device.

For example how they came up with the reference lab value for 100% yellow or red M100% Y100%?

Generally, there is no particular expectation of what 100% Yellow or Red should produce when printed and measured. You print that value, then measure and say "Ah hah! That's what color 100% Yellow is on this device!". :) The exception to this is if we're being asked to print to a specific colorimetry such as GRACoL, SWOP or FOGRA xx. Then we already know how 100% Yellow should print...and the reason we know that is probably because someone's already characterized a press to those printing conditions. But for inkjet printers for example, we rarely know...or even care...what a particular CMYK value should measure ahead of time; we're only interested in how it happens to be behaving now so we can profile/characterize it.

I'm sure this does not clear things up 100% but I'll wait for your next question before I go further.....and by the way, this is a very common source of confusion with color management newbies....you'll often here questions such as "I printed my profiling testchart...what should it measure?". Unless you're talking about a specific "standard", the answer is there is no answer! It prints how it prints and that's about it....we then make a profile of the printed result to characterize the device and to use that profile elsewhere in our color-managed workflow. The only thing that matters at this point is that the device prints CONSISTENTLY...if it doesn't, then you'll either need to profile it frequently to chase this variation or find some method to control the device ("calibration") to keep it consistent.

Anway, next question? ;)

Terry
 
Hi Robert81

[/QUOTE]
For example how they came up with the reference lab value for 100% yellow or red M100% Y100%?
[/QUOTE]

The Lab* values for Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Black have been published by the ISO (International Standards Organization).

These Lab* values have had input from all over the world based on actual press runs. In the litho sheet-fed Standard 12647-2 the Lab*values for cmyk are published.

Density readings are not an effective way to communicate accurate colour values so Lab* is used - you increase or decrease density until you hit the correct Lab*. The important number for K is the L* figure.

Regards,

Dan
 
Perhaps the thread on standard ink densities could shed some light for you....

How would that help?

The question (as I understood it) was where do they come up with the standard values for the ECI2002 and/or IT8.7/4 testcharts.

The answer is....there are no standard values for the charts themselves....L*a*b* values for the charts come from characterization data (GRACoL/SWOP/ISO FOGRA/etc.) but the charts themselves...the standard testcharts are nothing but a blank slate waiting to have measurements assigned to them from an output device.

Terry
 
Sorry about the late reply!!

I have to say that TerryWise understood my question, thanks from the great answer. When I said L*a*b aim values I didn’t mean GRACoL, FOGRA etc. aim values or linearization/calibration aim values or anything like that. Sorry about the confusion

Haha, Yeah the question is newbie indeed but I’m not that newbie for profiling. I've been doing profiles or been involved for almost 10 years now for different inkjet printers (not full time though) and yeah still lot to learn haha. I don't know why I was thinking that there should be L*a*b reference values for the output targets. Some reason I was thinking that it needs to make comparison when the profile is build, doesn’t make any sense any more :). But now I got it and Its quite clear for me, I mean that part of profiling :). As said, there is just CMYK reference data and after measuring the patches, that CMYK reference data is paired up with measured L*a*b values (characteristic device data) and from that data the profile can predict/calculate all the other CMYK or RGB combinations and match them with L*a*b.

So what kind of data or information ICC profile actually holds inside I assume bit more than just L*a*b measurments and CMYK references but don’t think that it needs to contain an entry for every possible compination of CMYK or RGB?

It’s quite amazing how they can calculate and predict all those colors from such a small amount of samples (I mean 1500 patches is small amount when compared to all the millions of colors). Is it just highly complicated mathematical algorithms and models or what actually happens when the profile is build and how they can predict all those colors? When I start thinking like this, it makes quite sense that the color data or the device have to be as linear as possible to get good profiles.
 
Hi ,
I am new here . thanks a lot for great information . but dont remmeber that color profile contain very important information . like GCR values ( gray information ) . one of the most important thing that color profiling do is make the correct gray chart from you colors. and dont forget about TVR .
 
Sorry about the late reply!!
So what kind of data or information ICC profile actually holds inside I assume bit more than just L*a*b measurments and CMYK references but don’t think that it needs to contain an entry for every possible compination of CMYK or RGB?

The profile itself can be created using spectral, L*a*b* or XYZ measurement data.....depending on the profiling application, the "raw" measurement data or dataset may be embedded in one of the profile tags. The profile tables themselves are typically L*a*b* but can also be XYZ...the part of which is called the Profile Connection Space or PCS when combined with the CMM (the "thing" that does the actual conversion between two profiles).

It’s quite amazing how they can calculate and predict all those colors from such a small amount of samples (I mean 1500 patches is small amount when compared to all the millions of colors). Is it just highly complicated mathematical algorithms and models or what actually happens when the profile is build and how they can predict all those colors? When I start thinking like this, it makes quite sense that the color data or the device have to be as linear as possible to get good profiles.

There's a whole lot of caclulatin' and interpolatin' going on during a profile conversion! :)
In any case, guys (or gals) much smarter than you or I have figured out how to make this stuff work....and it works pretty darn well these days when you think about it.

From mani_nourael:
I am new here . thanks a lot for great information . but dont remmeber that color profile contain very important information . like GCR values ( gray information ) . one of the most important thing that color profiling do is make the correct gray chart from you colors. and dont forget about TVR .

It only "holds" GCR data if 1) it's a CMYK profile (not so with RGB profiles obviously) and 2) you're actually converting TO a CMYK profile. If you're converting FROM a CMYK profile (source profile) then none of the GCR or separation parameters are used or even matter.

Terry
 
Tvr

Tvr

Thanks for nice reply.
but i think TVR also is hiden in color profiles . as you know software like photoshop
use them to show right color so when we use color profiles we can find out the TVR
or dotgain to use it when we are printing .
THANKX
 
Thanks for nice reply.
but i think TVR also is hiden in color profiles . as you know software like photoshop
use them to show right color so when we use color profiles we can find out the TVR
or dotgain to use it when we are printing .
THANKX
\

Actually, though dotgain can be derived from the data within a profile (calculated either colorimetrically or from spectral data), it isn't a user definable characteristic, like GCR or TAC (total area coverage). The profile knows what CIELab values it gets from a given input value, and will display as correctly as such in photoshop, etc., but as far a dotgain goes, a profile analysis tool might offer this as a convenience , but the TVI metric is not inherent in the profile. keep in mind that dotgain is historically a density based metric, and density isn't a profile attribute either.
 
Note that the L*a*b* values for 100% Y will change depending on substrate and density for a particular ink. This is why we need to print at different densities then decide what is the best ink film thickness to get as close as possible, and that may mean compromise. It is not unusual for a yellow to tend towards orange as density increases on offset. As was mentioned above testing different substrates for inkjet there was a big difference in hue as density of primaries increased.
 

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