KM bizhub PRESS C6000 vs. Canon imageRUNNER ADVANCE C9075 or 9076 PRO

[CathieH]

Hi, I'm new to this forum but not to the digital printing world. However, with that said, my digital experience is limited to one color KM C500 and b/w KM 1050, as well as Xerox 6500.

In the position I'm in now, we're getting ready to replace both of our Konica Minoltas with a Konica Minolta bizhub PRESS C6000, Canon imageRUNNER ADVANCE C9075 or Canon imageRUNNER ADVANCE C9065.

I work for a 100+ employee company as a copy center operator in our distribution center. We run a lot of scans, b/w books, color books and flyers and are trying to get some of the work back inhouse that has been sent out to printers due to poor quality here in the center.

I've been reading that the KM bizhub is for light production, where the Canon is a workhorse. I like the specs on the Canon, but am worried about their service. I need a workhorse, not something for light production, so is this a fair description?

Can anyone chime in on these machines, their experiences, thoughts, etc.? Also, what's the difference between the Canon C9065 and the C9075 with the exception of $10,000?

Thanks for any input you can give me. We're off to run samples next week and would like a list of questions for the reps.

CathieH

 

[CathieH]

Ooops, let me just add something here - I want this machine to run 110# stock, have good consistent quality on long runs, low service calls - I think you get the picture.

So, any words of wisdom?

Thanks again!
CathieH

 

[X33]

I think the KM is in a higher league than the Canon models.

Why are you not looking at the Xerox 560 or Xerox 700?

 

[CathieH]

We were looking at a Xerox and I personally like them, but the sales people treated my supervisor horribly when they got here (15 minutes late, I might add) and they're priced so danged high, much higher than the Canon and KM.

I've heard that Canon is having problems with service and a neighbor of one of the three of us that are making the decision said that a Canon rep he knows went over to All Copy Products (who we'll probably be leasing through) because he was working so many hours due to the low amount of service people Canon has. So that's a concern for me with Canon.

After researching yesterday, I'm thinking the KM C6000 is probably going to be our best bet.

 

[Damianc]

The difference between the 9075 and 9065 is 10 ppm. Canon service comes with performance guarantees, though of course, service in different geographic areas can vary. CBS has national standards that its branches must adhere to. Still, variations inevitably occur. Ask to meet with the Service Manager to get a sense of how you will be treated. Canon quality and durability are second to none. I'm a Canon guy, so I'm biased, but see for yourself. 110lb stock is no problem on the Canon. Ask to see the Customer Expectation Document (CED), so that you can compare speeds with different paper weights.

 

[BadgerFan]

Ricoh ProC720/C900/C901

Ricoh ProC720/C900/C901

Hi Cathie. Based on years of experience with both the KM and Canon light/mid production color systems, I would agree with X33 in that the KM platform will likely be a better fit for your needs if you're comparing it to the Canon ImageADVANCE. I would also implore you however to meet with you local IKON/Ricoh sales team to explore the Pro C720/C900/C901 systems. Your goals of service coverage, high uptime (high copies/prints between service calls), heavy sheet printing requirements, and color consistency throughout a run will all be met very nicely with any of these Ricoh systems. IKON/Ricoh also has an outstanding support team consisting of a primary sales rep, dedicated service technician, production specialist, and color analyst who will work with you throughout the sale, install and ongoing implementation to assure your satisfaction levels are high. Regarding your desire to pull work back to your in-house copy center, your IKON/Ricoh team can partner with you on this initiative as well.

Thank you and good luck with your analysis and upcoming decision!

 

[Dave at clg]

If you want a work horse, I would go with a Xerox. I was looking between Canon and Xerox when I was looking to replace my KM Bizhub. To me it seemed like KM maintenance was here more than I was and as far as the canon (7000), the people I talk to said it was down a lot of the time. Other than that, I can only speak for my Xerox 7000AP. Just turned a million around December, an when I did have a tech in, they said the machine hasn't even broken a sweet yet. Good Luck

 

[CathieH]

You know, I've always been a Xerox gal, but where I'm working, they just don't and can't put in the extra dollars for one. Kinda breaks my heart - I was thinking that at least the Canon LOOKS more like a Xerox so it might make me feel better, but of course it all comes down to will it do the job for us.

 

[Tbiller]

Maybe the X 7000 is better, but our 700 is a nightmare. We can't wait to get rid of it. We have techs in every couple of days. We are a print shop, and the last tech that was in told me that it shouldn't have been sold to us because of the type (heavy stocks etc.) and quantity of work we put through it, and we aren't even a year old yet. It seems like light production would be over selling it. It is ridiculously finicky as well. We now have a humidifier, a dehumidifier, an air conditioner, a line conditioner for the power, and it is in it's own special room. They even had us pull it 3 feet out from the wall as some kind of magic wand gesture that was supposed to make it run better. We have had jams galore, color problems, fuser problems, tray problems... you name it. The rip and machine don't work in sync very well either, so stock size, weight and finish have to be entered in both places. The rip has no idea what is loaded in each tray, so you have to remember, write it down, or go look every time you print.

In short, my experience tells me that it is a great machine for a single girl operator that wants to meet handsome techs coming in for service calls, otherwise they are trash. Oh, and the tech suggested that it might be good for a proofing device in a production shop.

 

[Dave at clg]

Sorry to hear about that. Our biggest factor in getting the 7000 was the stock we were running. I am constantly running 80-100# cover. In fact the decision was based on one certain customer needing to print 2/sided 100# cover. I even got try that particular job out on a KM and a Xerox before we purchased. The KM could not even lift the weight of the paper in the drawer when I filled it. Xerox has told me that the machine is not made to duplex 100# cover, but I just have to fool it a little. What Rip are you using. We are using a Fiery with the graphic arts package and really have not had any trouble for 3 years +.

 

[iambuzzman!]

The Canon 6000/7000/6010/7010 has by far the best paper feed system I ever worked on in over 36 yrs. If there is jamming, 95% of the time is because paper is not configured properly. Once a user is up to speed on registering media there is virtually no jams. Front to back registration needs a user to be very experienced in first verifying true media size (dont believe the wrapper sticker) and then using the media library to fine tune. Most often the best you will get is 3 out of 4 corners to match up. paper shrinkage is alot of the problem there, and since there IS A PRESSURE FIXING in the process you cant get around it. If your needs are for a more constant type job then this machine really cant be beat, but if you plan on alot of variable size/weight media jobs...prepare for more service downtime and adjustment headaches.

 

[einstein999]

I agree with the comment above to meet with the Service Manager, not that they can't BS their way thru a chat, but the initial reaction to your suggestion to meet and the subsequent meeting should tell you some. I wish I was in your area, you could meet anybody you like

 

[JustPrint!]

RUN AWAY with anything that has "ADVANCE" in it's name... and don't look back. Crap total crap, I went for a demo and machine broke down as soon as we tried to print on 12 pt.

LOL

The rep. kept delaying on delivering the samples that he ran next day on machine. Why? Because he was embarrassed.

His exact line, and I would never forget this: "I can no longer ask for your business". He left the samples on my desk and walked out.

I looked at samples and threw them in trash.

My original communication with Canon rep. was to sell me a machine that would produce prints that are sell able. When he couldn't do that, he bowed out, and I respect him for that.

 

[benny123]

I am aware of a customer running 200k a month on a iR ADV 9075pro. It is all on 80gsm but it doesnt miss a beat. These are good machines. If you have requirement for heavy stock all of the time then this is not the machine. For the right work its a great machine. Like anything you need to find the right tool for the jobs you run.

 

[CathieH]

My needs are definitely quite a variety of stock and quantities. We've decided that for what we're doing, we're going with the KM 6501 and keeping our KM 1050 for the large quantities of black and books that we run. The advantage also to staying with the KM is that I can keep the micropress to run both machines, and I have a lot of flexibility with that system, creating tabs, despeckling individual pages or a specific set of pages, etc. We simply don't have enough color to justify and big color printer at this point and our numbers show that.

When we went to the testing, the best quality really was the KM 6501 and the Canon really stunk in comparison. I also saw the difference between the Creo and Fiery and agree that the color consistency and quality is better with the Creo, but that may be moot since I'll be updating my micropress.

Anyway, the PTB are running the numbers and wheeling and dealing, so I'll see what ends up happening. The biggest problem I have now is that I don't get to have a 44-hole punch add-on to the KM 1050 because they didn't make one for that press, but did for the next generation. Having a 44-hole punch on the color does me no good as I run all my books on the 1050. So I'm stuck manually punching, unless I can come up with something better. But it is what it is and maybe we'll need to upgrade in a few years and can add one on then.

Thanks for all the replies.
Cathie

 

[Jackie]

RUN AWAY with anything that has "ADVANCE" in it's name... and don't look back. Crap total crap, I went for a demo and machine broke down as soon as we tried to print on 12 pt.

LOL

The rep. kept delaying on delivering the samples that he ran next day on machine. Why? Because he was embarrassed.

His exact line, and I would never forget this: "I can no longer ask for your business". He left the samples on my desk and walked out.

I looked at samples and threw them in trash.

My original communication with Canon rep. was to sell me a machine that would produce prints that are sell able. When he couldn't do that, he bowed out, and I respect him for that.

I can't agree more, the Canon Image Runner Advance 9065 Pro is a total nightmare. I can't say more as there are legal ramifications now (sad but true). Sort of Ok on lighter stock but wildly inconsistent when running anything over 80lb Cover.

 

[benny123]

The Canon 9000 pro series is a very good box if sold into the correct area. I know a user putting 100k/mth on there with no problems at all. They are doing everything at 100gsm so its fine and the quality is good. If you try and run 300gsm business cards all day expect isssues but its you own fault as the machine is clearly not designed for this.

The people on here whinging more often than not are doing jobs on their equipment whatever brand it may be that it is not designed to do.

The key is to find a sales rep who will understand the requirements and its your job as the customer to state the true requirements you have. If you do this and find a good rep i can assure you that you will be happy with your purchase.

 

[JustPrint!]

Dude, what is wrong with you. Canon is marketing these to printers. BREAKING NEWS: printers use different weights not only 100gsm.

Yeah I am harsh but you don't need to say people here are whining when Canon is telling their REPS these machines can go into print shops.

The Canon 9000 pro series is a very good box if sold into the correct area. I know a user putting 100k/mth on there with no problems at all. They are doing everything at 100gsm so its fine and the quality is good. If you try and run 300gsm business cards all day expect isssues but its you own fault as the machine is clearly not designed for this.

The people on here whinging more often than not are doing jobs on their equipment whatever brand it may be that it is not designed to do.

The key is to find a sales rep who will understand the requirements and its your job as the customer to state the true requirements you have. If you do this and find a good rep i can assure you that you will be happy with your purchase.

 

[benny123]

Dude, what is wrong with you. Canon is marketing these to printers. BREAKING NEWS: printers use different weights not only 100gsm.

Yeah I am harsh but you don't need to say people here are whining when Canon is telling their REPS these machines can go into print shops.

Dude, i accept what you are saying and realise customers print on varying stocks. My point is that many clients still do 100% of work at greater than 200gsm on a Canon 9000, Xerox 700 or KM6501 and the CED for all of them say they cant do it. The point i make is a lot of customers are guilty of not explaining exactly what they plan to use the machine for and then blame the dealer or manufacturer when the machine starts to fail. In this instance it doesnt matter what you have!!

Too many people want to pay light production costs and expect full production IGEN or Indigo performance. Tight asses will always have problems. If you cant afford the right machine for the job id question the business planning capabilty.