KM C3080 vs VERSANT 180 vs RICOH 7200 vs CANON C910 vs KM C83HC

[Eric Boucher]

Hello, currently looking into options to replace a Konica 1070. We do mostly short runs (50-500 pages) and practically no duplexing. Looking for feedback on any of these machines.

We are quite satisfied with the 1070, which came as an apt replacement for a Xerox 700. Didn't like the J75 Xerox was offering at the time so I'm a bit wary of the Versant... Ricoh and Canon are new to us so I don't know what to think.

Konica are offering both the C3080 or C83HC. I'm afraid the C83HC won't be able to accurately print a regular CMYK job. Some customers might not like the "over the top" saturated vibrant colors... Anyone have feedback on that machine?

We do mostly short runs (under 500 pages) and practically no duplexing. Would the IQ-501 be of any use besides calibration? Is the calibration as accurate as with a FD-5 spectrodensitometer?

Thank you!

 

[Puch]

First of all, please consider NOT replacing the trusty "old" C1070. If you don't print that much, why would you replace it? Don't fall for the sales guy's push and BS. The KM C10xx line is a very mature family of printers, it will be hard to surpass it's stability, reliability and serviceability. EOL will be around 2024-25, so you will have spare parts, consumables for many years to come.

You haven't stated what kind of documents you produce of the machine. The KM C3080 is only better on structured paper, and only marginally. They changed the toner-developer mixture a bit, which makes laminating a bit more easier, too. If you don't do duplexing, the third general change means nothing to you, which is the ability to set the front-back registration a little more better.

The IQ-501 is a nice addition to a shop where there are a lot of demanding color jobs go 7/24. But if you already have an FD-5, and don't have to rush, the IQ-501 will only add little to your production efficiency.

The C83HC is a fantastic machine for a niche market. The rumour is real, matching ordinary CMYK jobs with past production batches is a nightmare on that. You have to have a very strict in-house color management policy to be successful with that machine in the commercial print arena. I've seen shops praising the HC, but they do a lot of art and photo reproductions, which is what that machine is made for.

The Ricoh 7200 is another beast, it's not in the same league with the small Konica. The real advantage of that machine is the almost straight paper path and the larger drums, rolls, which makes it ideal to print onto high-weight structured materials.

 

[Eric Boucher]

Thanks for your reply. I would keep the 1070 but Konica bought out our Xerox contract with that machine and they would only do it with a lease contract. The contract is ending and I'd rather pay towards a machine we own than keep paying a monthly rent for nothing...

You're not saying the 3080 would be a step-back from the 1070? We once had a Xerox 242 with a Creo rip that we regretted trading for the "better" Xerox 700. We could never achieve the quality we had with the 242 with the 700 even though it was a better machine on paper...

We print mostly 170 gsm gloss, nothing very fancy...

 

[Eric Boucher]

We do laminate most of our jobs, so the 3080 being better for that is a plus.

 

[Puch]

The thing with the lamination is that (I believe) you already found the supplier with the right foil, and you found out the best temperature to fuse (on the C1070) and to laminate, too. So this advantage of the C3080 only 'counts' if you need versatility: lamination on a lot of different materials, zero tolerance on bubbles etc.

The C3080 is a newer machine of course, and its EOL will be much later than that of the C1070, but the print quality is the same. Don't expect something fancy. IMHO the C10xx line was a 'too good' group of machines from Konica, like the E46 of BMW. They both regret to put out that kind of quality to the market, since it's very hard to surpass.

 

[Eric Boucher]

Hello, just demoed the Versant 180, Konica C83hc and C3080. Thought I'd share my feelings.

The Versant performed fine but failed to impress me. Quality output was just on par with our current 1070. No vacuum feeder. The operator tried to show me the "automatic" (you still have to scan printed sheets) front/back registration on a 320 gsm stock but the machine failed and he had to input corrections manually. We don't use any fancy finishing options so I can't say anything about those.

The Konica C3080 showed a little improvement in quality over the 1070 but nothing extraordinary. Our thick stock did run a lot better with nicer and smoother solid colors, no mottling at all. Front/back registration on the IQ-501 took 3 copies and was spot on on the first try. Automatic calibration with the IQ-501 took a couple minutes.

Also tried the C83hc, I was concerned it'd be able to print a regular CMYK job and it did just fine. Just turned off the "saturation" mode and the prints came out just like on the C3080. Saturation mode is interesting and we were able to print some impressive flashy greens and pinks. Not sure this is something we can sell but I'm sure we can find opportunities to use it and please some customers.

They used the Konica RIP on both machines, which allows full use of the IQ-501.

Seeing some Canon machines tomorrow. Called Ricoh 3 days ago and besides trying to sell me an office machine over the phone, they haven't called back, oops...

 

[Eric Boucher]

Does anyone know how the Konica IC-605 RIP compares to the Fiery IC-313?

Thanks!

 

[halmac]

First of all, please consider NOT replacing the trusty "old" C1070. If you don't print that much, why would you replace it? Don't fall for the sales guy's push and BS. The KM C10xx line is a very mature family of printers, it will be hard to surpass it's stability, reliability and serviceability. EOL will be around 2024-25, so you will have spare parts, consumables for many years to come.

You haven't stated what kind of documents you produce of the machine. The KM C3080 is only better on structured paper, and only marginally. They changed the toner-developer mixture a bit, which makes laminating a bit more easier, too. If you don't do duplexing, the third general change means nothing to you, which is the ability to set the front-back registration a little more better.

The IQ-501 is a nice addition to a shop where there are a lot of demanding color jobs go 7/24. But if you already have an FD-5, and don't have to rush, the IQ-501 will only add little to your production efficiency.

The C83HC is a fantastic machine for a niche market. The rumour is real, matching ordinary CMYK jobs with past production batches is a nightmare on that. You have to have a very strict in-house color management policy to be successful with that machine in the commercial print arena. I've seen shops praising the HC, but they do a lot of art and photo reproductions, which is what that machine is made for.

The Ricoh 7200 is another beast, it's not in the same league with the small Konica. The real advantage of that machine is the almost straight paper path and the larger drums, rolls, which makes it ideal to print onto high-weight structured materials.

We are installing a Canon 750. Canon wasn't mentioned at all. Any thoughts on the C750?

 

[namelessentity]

We are installing a Canon 750. Canon wasn't mentioned at all. Any thoughts on the C750?

I am not a fan of anything about ours. What are you planning on using it for?

 

[Puch]

Does anyone know how the Konica IC-605 RIP compares to the Fiery IC-313?

Thanks!

We've just switched from Fiery to Hikari (as KM call their own solution). After some weeks of use all I can say that I'm impressed! The KM solution can do all the Fiery is able to do, and you don't have to use the sluggish (Java-based) Fiery Workstation software. The KM solution can be accessed from any modern browser, even across a VPN connection when you're on the road.

On the other hand, a KM printer driven by Hikari can only be calibrated (manually) using a standalone application called Color Centro. So it is not buil-in like in Fiery. Color Centro can do a lot more than calibration, though. Eg. it can do iteration to achieve a better color match. I've only ever seen this function on proof RIPs.

Thanks for sharing the result of the demos!

 

[Midwestprinter]

We are installing a Canon 750. Canon wasn't mentioned at all. Any thoughts on the C750?

One thing about the Canon 750 is that it is NOT the current model by Canon. Its been replaced by the 710/810/910 model. Hopefully you got a BIG discount on it. My local Canon dealer is offering a 750 for a huge discount compared to the 810.

 

[halmac]

I am not a fan of anything about ours. What are you planning on using it for?

Mostly book covers and flyers.

 

[Eric Boucher]

Hello,
Thought I'd follow up on this now that I have demoed the Canon C910. I feel like I may be spoiled with my Konica C1070 because just like the Versant 180, the C910 failed to impress me. It seems like a step down on many regards... Just like on the Versant 180, the "automatic" front/back registration calibration failed and we had to input corrections manually. They boast the machine is excellent for printing on thick media but I did see some mottling on our 320 gsm card... Light solid colors and fine text had a disappointing blurry look.

Pricing is comparable to the Versant 180, a bit cheaper than the Konica C3080 or C83hc but those come with the IQ-501 and 2 vacuum feeders, options we can afford/use and that are not available on either Canon or Xerox machines. Click rates are close, Konica being the cheapest.

Now the choice is between Konica and Konica : C3080 vs C83hc. Anyone with any experience on the C83hc is welcome to share it! Still anxious how we'll do with regular CMYK jobs...

Sales rep is also trying to convince me that the Konica Hikari embedded IC-605 RIP can do everything the external Fiery IC-313 can do but I'm not sold. IC-313 comes with APPE and hot folders and virtual printers. We get the hot folders with the Hikari but need add-ons for APPE and virtual printers which makes the Fiery only a couple $100 more. Anyone using either RIPs with IQ-501?

 

[jwheeler]

Does anyone know how the Konica IC-605 RIP compares to the Fiery IC-313?

Thanks!

We recently upgraded from an old KM C8000 with a Fiery to a KM C6085 with a KM controller. We also had 3 KM 1250's which we upgraded to 3 KM 6136's, also with KM controller. We are an inplant for the county, so we may have different needs than commercial shops. We did get the IQ-501. The main reason is because we run a ton of business cards and cut on an Aerocut Prime, so we need the positioning to be consistent. The fact that it also manages color is great, but we never really saw that as an issue before.

They main 3 reasons we switched from Fiery to KM Controller:

1. A large amount of our work is training manuals which are 3 hole punched, including tabs, and placed in binders. We found it much easier to setup the tabs in the KM controller than on the Fiery.
2. It could have just been us, but we regularly had issues with the Fiery connecting to the engine. We would have to restart the printer, the Fiery, or both a couple of times until they connected.
3. We realized the KM controller could do just about everything the Fiery could, and it just seemed to do it faster. They even have a job queue like Command Workstation that seemed even better than CWS. We could rearrange pages, change job settings, etc right from the machine panel and not have to go to the Fiery. We can also make hotfolders from within the software rather than the separate Hot Folder software you need with Fiery. The only thing we lost but rarely used was Impose/Compose, which is a great software. We have 3rd party imposition software for those rare times we need it. Someone mentioned the Color Centro software for calibration. This has been just as easy to use as calibration in the Fiery and even though it's technically a separate software, there's a link in the KM Job Centro software which automatically opens up Color Centro when you want to calibrate...so they work together seamlessly.

 

[Eric Boucher]

We recently upgraded from an old KM C8000 with a Fiery to a KM C6085 with a KM controller. We also had 3 KM 1250's which we upgraded to 3 KM 6136's, also with KM controller. We are an inplant for the county, so we may have different needs than commercial shops. We did get the IQ-501. The main reason is because we run a ton of business cards and cut on an Aerocut Prime, so we need the positioning to be consistent. The fact that it also manages color is great, but we never really saw that as an issue before.

They main 3 reasons we switched from Fiery to KM Controller:

1. A large amount of our work is training manuals which are 3 hole punched, including tabs, and placed in binders. We found it much easier to setup the tabs in the KM controller than on the Fiery.
2. It could have just been us, but we regularly had issues with the Fiery connecting to the engine. We would have to restart the printer, the Fiery, or both a couple of times until they connected.
3. We realized the KM controller could do just about everything the Fiery could, and it just seemed to do it faster. They even have a job queue like Command Workstation that seemed even better than CWS. We could rearrange pages, change job settings, etc right from the machine panel and not have to go to the Fiery. We can also make hotfolders from within the software rather than the separate Hot Folder software you need with Fiery. The only thing we lost but rarely used was Impose/Compose, which is a great software. We have 3rd party imposition software for those rare times we need it. Someone mentioned the Color Centro software for calibration. This has been just as easy to use as calibration in the Fiery and even though it's technically a separate software, there's a link in the KM Job Centro software which automatically opens up Color Centro when you want to calibrate...so they work together seamlessly.

Thanks for your input. I wish I could try out both RIPs doing exactly what we'll be doing and see how they perform...

 

[Shaare]

Just curious, anyone can explain why larger drums would render better solids on linens? I was under the impression that switching to AC instead of DC in their image transfer is the reason why they improved their linens...

 

[jwheeler]

Thanks for your input. I wish I could try out both RIPs doing exactly what we'll be doing and see how they perform...

If you’re trying to save money with the KM controller, then it’s a great option. Just make sure you get the APPE add on. If you are concerned about learning a new system, stay with the Fiery. If you use the impose/compose plugins heavily, then definitely stay with the Fiery. It still offers the full functionality of the image position and color controls of the IQ-501. But really, if you’ve been happy with the C1070, save yourself $10k and skip the IQ-501. It constantly has to warm up before printing starts which might get tedious for your short runs.

Lastly, the KM reps aren’t always so clear to point this out, but the IQ-501 can only check color and position on every sheet if you print on oversized sheets. It has to place its own color bars and registration marks on the outer edges to have something to read. You can still use the automatic position registration before starting a job, and you can tell it to periodically check sheets...but again for your 500 or less runs, it’s most likely not necessary.

 

[Eric Boucher]

If you’re trying to save money with the KM controller, then it’s a great option. Just make sure you get the APPE add on. If you are concerned about learning a new system, stay with the Fiery. If you use the impose/compose plugins heavily, then definitely stay with the Fiery. It still offers the full functionality of the image position and color controls of the IQ-501. But really, if you’ve been happy with the C1070, save yourself $10k and skip the IQ-501. It constantly has to warm up before printing starts which might get tedious for your short runs.

Lastly, the KM reps aren’t always so clear to point this out, but the IQ-501 can only check color and position on every sheet if you print on oversized sheets. It has to place its own color bars and registration marks on the outer edges to have something to read. You can still use the automatic position registration before starting a job, and you can tell it to periodically check sheets...but again for your 500 or less runs, it’s most likely not necessary.

Thanks again for the info, very helpful. Saving money isn't really an issue. We're mostly looking for high quality and convenience. I know we don't need the IQ-501 but I'm sure it will come handy. Density uniformity is really important for us and I'll go with anything that could help in that regards. We do not sell the actual prints, we use them to manufacture our products and in the end the cost of printing is negligeable so we can afford to spend a little bit on extras just for comfort... I'm getting 2 paper feeders just so we never have to switch medias (we always use the same 6 medias).

We don't use the impose plug-ins but the one thing we really use are virtual printers. I have a virtual printer set up for each media and we print directly from our software. It doesn't seem like it's something they've really developed in the Accurio software as they had to double check it was available when I asked for it. The demo guy couldn't really tell me how they worked and just really tried to convince me to use hot folders instead...

Would you say that if $ is not a concern I should stick the the Fiery ? KM seem to be saying their software allows you to really use the KM hardware to it full extent and they hint at free updates with new features as time go by. I want to believe them but then again they would probably rather sell KM items than Fierys.

 

[jwheeler]

Thanks again for the info, very helpful. Saving money isn't really an issue. We're mostly looking for high quality and convenience. I know we don't need the IQ-501 but I'm sure it will come handy. Density uniformity is really important for us and I'll go with anything that could help in that regards. We do not sell the actual prints, we use them to manufacture our products and in the end the cost of printing is negligeable so we can afford to spend a little bit on extras just for comfort... I'm getting 2 paper feeders just so we never have to switch medias (we always use the same 6 medias).

We don't use the impose plug-ins but the one thing we really use are virtual printers. I have a virtual printer set up for each media and we print directly from our software. It doesn't seem like it's something they've really developed in the Accurio software as they had to double check it was available when I asked for it. The demo guy couldn't really tell me how they worked and just really tried to convince me to use hot folders instead...

Would you say that if $ is not a concern I should stick the the Fiery ? KM seem to be saying their software allows you to really use the KM hardware to it full extent and they hint at free updates with new features as time go by. I want to believe them but then again they would probably rather sell KM items than Fierys.

Stay with the Fiery if you’re used to it. I actually used to sell KM production gear so I know what they’re referring to about “future features”. The IQ-501 is eventually going to be able to analyze the sheets for defects such as random toner splatter, streaks, or voids. The way it works is you print one sheet and if you like it you tell the IQ to remember that as a good sample for reference. Then if any future sheets vary from that one it will eject them to a separate tray. It does sound great in theory, but I would be surprised if they don’t make the fiery capable of supporting it as well because the fiery is the number one sold controller.

 

[Eric Boucher]

Stay with the Fiery if you’re used to it. I actually used to sell KM production gear so I know what they’re referring to about “future features”. The IQ-501 is eventually going to be able to analyze the sheets for defects such as random toner splatter, streaks, or voids. The way it works is you print one sheet and if you like it you tell the IQ to remember that as a good sample for reference. Then if any future sheets vary from that one it will eject them to a separate tray. It does sound great in theory, but I would be surprised if they don’t make the fiery capable of supporting it as well because the fiery is the number one sold controller.

They actually also offered the AIT unit that does exactly what you're mentioning. I turned that one down as I think it's really useful for large runs which we don't do.