Komori picture framing

[John Arneson]

I am looking for info from any operator of a L628c Komori that has a picture framing problem. I have tried many things, but I have had tons of problems but no solutions so far. Having been running sheet fed for 40 years, I am very experienced. I would like to hear from any operators running a 3000 or above series Komori Lithrone of any kind.

 

[Bob Peterson]

John,

A few questions:

1.) Have you been having this problem all along, if not when did it begin?

3.) Is the picture framing occurring with all colors or only certain colors?

2.) Has there been a changes in consumables lately i.e. (Wash, ink, plates, etc.).

3.) How often do you drain and flush your fountain solution tanks and do you use any type of calcium rinse?

Bob

 

[John Arneson]

1) yes
3) all colors all 6 units.
2) nope
3) weekly to daily

This is not a chemistry problem.

 

[turbotom1052]

look for variations in plates grain direction.

 

[REYES1377]

Peterson has some valid questions. But I to have had a severe picture framing problem on our LS840. It is a new press and has had this issue from day one. It has reduced after testing numerous fountain solutions and ink companies. It is unfortunate for the ink and fountain solution companies, because I have come to terms that this press is just too sensitive to what is ran in it. We have a 11 year old Heidelberg that will run what ever you put in it. Komori has no clue why this is the wat it is. The finger has been pointed at every vendors product. We ar still working with Komori on getting it right,1.5 year later.

 

[Bob Peterson]

1) yes
3) all colors all 6 units.
2) nope
3) weekly to daily

This is not a chemistry problem.

John,

By no means am I implying that it is a chemistry problem. However, in order to solve the problem one needs to know all of the pertinent data.

The 1st thing that I would recommend is to take a plate and on the outside edges, (non paper area), and preform the following:

1.) Wash thoroughly with water only.
2.) Go over the area with some deletion fluid.
3.) Gum the area and let it dry.

If this eliminates the picture framing then the problem lies in either the plate processor or the laser. However, if it the picture framing remains, the problem is chemistry related i.e. (Ink, fountain solution, roller wash, etc.)

Try the following, (one at a time), to see if the problem is eliminated:

> Wash the plate and blanket manually and follow up with a water only rinse. If this fixes the problem the problem is related to your wash solvent / procedure.

> Ensure that your conductivity is below 2200 mHos and the Refractive Index is below 2.0. (A Refractometer will measure the amount of alcohol substitute in the fountain solution). A FS with a refractive index exceeding 2.0 will begin breaking down softer bodied inks and slow down the ink dry time.

> Reduce blanket pressure.

> Set your ink chiller to 70 F, the rollers should run at 75-80 F.

> Set your fountain solution chiller to 55 F, the pan temp should be 60-65 F.

> Try a ink with a heavy body.

I would change the ink as a last resort as doing so will require a set of new plate curves to match the proofing system and/or reprints.

Good Luck!
Bob

 

[rickprince]

Picture Framing Issue

Picture Framing Issue

We have developed a one-step fountain solution that will help you with this issue. The name of the product is Millennium 2000. Use it at 4 ounces per gallon. Tower Products for more information. Hope this helps.

Rick

 

[Raymond Ramirez]

why does everyone think its a press issue... Just because it shows up on one press and not another....

what plate are you using?????????

think of it for a minute. The plate maybe taking shortening the shoulder of operational
area for the press. The operational shoulder of one press maybe shorter than the other.

lets say you have a third press and its a Sakuri. who is to say that it would not happen on that one...

plate manufacture and series please?

 

[John Arneson]

Thank you all for your input. Bob sorry for my short reply this morning I was on my way to work. I have tried the deletion pen test a few times ,no results. Water pan temps are 60F, Running a very high body ink INX ecopure HPJ, No roller chillers here.
Turbotom, I am using Fugi plates I ordered a batch to be made in long grain rather than short about 10 days ago ,still waiting.
Reyes1377 Could you tell me the serial number of your press?
I should say more here about my picture framing problem but only some. I have a huge stack of notes in front of me from the past year and a half of testing. I will try to put it in some kind of order in a PDF and atach it when I get some time.

I ran a L628 for about 10 years before we sold it to buy this one because it had a coater.
I never had a problem with the former press. I have worked with Komori on this problem until they what lost interest I guess.
I have worked with the head chemist at prisco by cell phone for a week. He said you do not have a chemical problem...period.
I have worked with Fugi..........they said you do not need a chemist you need a machanical enginer.
I have many reasons to believe this machine was born with the problem.

Thank you all for your time.
John

 

[0019]

Hi John,

I'm new for the printing and not much experience.

For this issue, I guess, because press has no roller chiller so when you ran it, ink temperature will increase and body of ink have been changed. Try some ink from Asia - this ink suitable for high temperature climate and should be solve this problem.

I'm from Thailand and use some EU ink and also found picture framing.

Regards,

 

[GJOHN]

I was surprised that no one mentioned about Calcium Carbonate leeching out of paper, perhaps is one of the causes. Papers that are coming from overseas and some domestic papers contain a ton of Calcium carbonate. If the pH of the fount is too low (more acidic) it can break it down.
Rickprince, what is the ph of the press ready fount you are talking about? Keep the pH cose to 5.0 and do a test. You mentioned other presses do not do it, what paper is being used there? If something is mechanically wrong on this press, my guess is that it has something to do with the way it is applying water(too much).
Hope this will remind all about Calcium rinse!!

 

[John Arneson]

George John,
It is not a calcium carbonate problem. I have religiously cleaned the rollers with sulphamic acid phosphoric acid , hydrochloric acid, following up with a good shot of boiling vinager and water rinse. I put in a new set of ink rollers one day and had a job the next on CHROMECOTE stock the next , I drained the water tank and put in fresh.
If you remember this stock is clay coat not calcium, ...picture framing just the same.

I am looking for people with Komoris in the serial number series of 3000 and above.
thanks John

 

[Venom]

Komori Picture Framing

Komori Picture Framing

Hi John,

By Fugi I guess you mean Fuji. Are the plates Thermal or visible Light. We had issues with picture framing on a Komori 74 using Fuji LPNV plates and after weeks of looking at CTP, plates dev chemistry and processor and being told no consumables had been changed we finally found that the customer had changed to Soy based inks.
Regards
Venom

 

[geozinger]

About five years ago the company I used to work for switched from conventional Kodak Craftsman plates to Sword Excel CTP plates, and we had a picture framing issue. It was a pretty sticky problem, one we never completely fixed. One of the theories had to do with the oscillators on the L528 we had at the time.

It took us a while, and the biggest gain we got was from changing fountain solution, switching the grain on our plates and changing our procedures. Like I said, it didn't completely fix the problem, but it was less evident. When we first started with the CTP plates, we were getting picture framing anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 sheets and by the time we had made the changes, the picture framing didn't start until after 10,000 sheets. At that time we rarely ran much above 10,000 sheets on a job.

 

[John Arneson]

geozinger,
Thanks for your reply. I have had the same results here, as long as I stop and clean the blankets every 10,000 shts. It is a problem I can live with. By undercutting the blanket packing I run about 30,000 and clean the blanket just for GP mostly.
I have improved the picture framing quite a bit by changing the nip pressures on the water form. Try 3.5 mm to the chrome and 4.5 to the plate. Seems odd but it does help .

Could you tell me what year your press is and what the serial number is?

Thanks John

 

[Raymond Ramirez]

So sorry I should have stated if the plates where LHPJ, ECCOMAX T, LHPSE... Fuji has quite a few thermal plates.

 

[GJOHN]

George John,
"It is not a calcium carbonate problem. I have religiously cleaned the rollers with sulphamic acid phosphoric acid , hydrochloric acid,"

Hydrochloric acid????

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Abuse !

Abuse !

John Arneson,

Now you have finished abusing the roller trains, Beg, borrow or steal a known good one thats been "Gummed" ----

Presensitized Plate - not a CtP imaged one, mount the plate on one unit and print from it, and see what happens,


Regards, Alois

 

[vaithi47]

agreed with alois.this is a plate problem,residual coating remaining on ctp plates.to make sure it is the ctp plates try conventional ps plates in one unit without touching the settings or the chemistry

 

[John Arneson]

Raymond Ramires,
I am running Fuji LHPJ