Komori picture framing

[Servicetech]

Hello fellow Lithographers.

.............. is called for !

1) The Delta effect is not a feature of the Komorimatic or Alcolor dampening systems.

2) The Delta Drive is a patented design for a Dampening System from Epic Products (USA)

3) On the Komorimatic dampening system, the Metering Roller and Chrome pan roller are geared together, not the Dampening Forme Roller.

See the PDFs

Regards, Alois

On the older Komori presses this was true, the water forms were not gear driven, however the dampeners were changed in the 90's, and the water forms have been gear driven for many years now. I don't remember the exact year they were changed.

The water form, being gear driven turns slightly slower than the plate cylinder, giving it a "wiping" effect or (delta effect), for reduced hickeys.

If you remove the gear from the water form, this will indeed disable the delta effect, if your results change then you have something to go on.

 

[Servicetech]

mechanical wear?

mechanical wear?

thanks for your input. Unlike heidelbergs vario system i am not able to disengage the delta drive at will on this komori model. The only way i know of and tried is to take the gear off the water form eliminating the delta effect, but other issues such as hickies, dampening banding arise. The chattering does go away thats how i know its gear related. I have posted a thread on this before but no answers, plus i find it interesting that no komori mech. or anyone related to komori has replied, i know there are plenty out there who read these threads. Oh well....

Check the pin that the small nylon idler gear runs on, it is a common wear point, the pin gets loose in the casting, causing gear noise and other problems. A badly worn one will eventually crack the little sheet metal cover over the gear. I have made many repairs on this issue. It usually involves dis-assembling the dampener and either replacing the whole roller hanger on the operator side (fastest way) or having the wear repaired at a machine shop.

With the little cover and the small nylon gear removed, try to wiggle the shaft, if it wiggles then it is worn.

 

[neversatisfied]

Servicetech thanks for your reply. Im at home right now and im trying to picture in my head exactly what pin your referring to, also are you talking about the gear that meshes with the chrome roller gear? But then you mention the roller hanger and having to replace it. Im sorry im a little confused.

 

[Servicetech]

Servicetech thanks for your reply. Im at home right now and im trying to picture in my head exactly what pin your referring to, also are you talking about the gear that meshes with the chrome roller gear? But then you mention the roller hanger and having to replace it. Im sorry im a little confused.

Sorry I confused you, Yes the white plastic gear that meshes with the gear on the chrome oscillator is the one I'm talking about. It runs on a small shaft (pin) that is mounted in a hole on the roller hanger bracket. If the shaft that this gear is on has any wiggle, it will cause problems and make a lot of noise.

Usually the hole gets wallowed out and no longer holds the shaft solid so it has play in it.

 

[Dan Roll]

When Komori first made this change I investigated and was eventually led to an engineer at Komori (who spoke excellent English) who kindly answered most of my questions. One thing he told me was that in addition to gear driving the form roller from the chrome roller, they changed the surface speed of the chrome roller as well, by changing its gearing. This was apparently done in order to increase the speed difference between the chrome roller and the estimated plate surface speed (this speed changes with the packing height, so you have to shoot for the middle) so that what was considered an effective speed difference between the form roller and the plate to provide the 'hickey picking effect' could be achieved. I am not sure if the form roller and chrome roller turn at the same surface speed or not (this to a certain extent would be affected by the form roller diameter).

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Gearing or not to Gear, that is the question

Gearing or not to Gear, that is the question

Servicetech, and fellow Lithographers,

Thank you Servicetech, I was unaware that Komori had change to a Gear Driven Dampener.


A PDF that should be of interest.


Regards, Alois

 

[neversatisfied]

Servicetech, thanks for clearing that up for me but unfortunately i think the press you have reference to is a newer model than what i have. My press is a L528, 2003. I dont have that small gear on this press. Thanks.

 

[John Arneson]

Komori Picture Framing

Komori Picture Framing

Servicetech,
I am a little confused here also. My system is as such. The water pan roller (Z) drives the metering roller (W) from the drive side of the press. The oscillating chrome roller (Y) drives the form roller(V) on the operators side. The form roller drives the two oscillating copper rollers (X) set to 4mm. and (U) below spring loaded, from the drive side.I do not find this small plastic gear you refer to.
Here is a picture of my stripped down system.

 

[neversatisfied]

Thanks Dan for that insight. Good stuff.

 

[neversatisfied]

John, thanks for posting those photos. Thats what my press is like but without the bottom copper oscillating roller, i just have one on top of the water form.

 

[Servicetech]

Oops, my mistake, i got my dampener vintages wrong, the gear (and) shaft in my post above does not apply to your press. I apologize.

 

[John Arneson]

Komori picture framing

Inkinveins,
Of coarse picture framing is a natural part of offset printing. Try this scenario though, you are running your press at 13 to 15 thousand sheets per hour and you have to stop every 40 or 45 min to clean the blankets. It is completely unproductive to say the least. I have been running the same repeat order for years, it is 4cp on one side 80,000 shts, 80# gloss text. I ran it continuous and only cleaned the blankets and impression cylinders at the end. I always finished the job in less than 8 hours. Now with the new press it takes me 11 or 12 hours. I am running the same plates, the same fountain solution, the same ink, the same paper......it's the press.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Picture Framing

Picture Framing

John Arneson,


I suggest that the Plate Dampener to Chrome Vibrator gear be disengage.

Reasons:

1) Running Alcohol Substitute based F.S. has a lower viscosity than IPA

2) Lower viscosity requires the Plate Dampener run at speed -- not slow which is the

norm for the Delta Effect.


Regards, Alois

 

[cincyinkslinger]

I have read the entire thread and there have been some good ideas put forth to solve the problems displayed. I have no doubt that the problems are legitimate. Having been around hundreds of Komori machines for many years, I found them to print great and to be very reliable. In many cases, if a machine is having problems, it comes down to the materials being used, the skill of the operators to understand the interaction of the materials with the press, and how well the machine is being maintained.You cannot run Komori technology(which works well) with a Heidelberg (which also works well) mentality. With statements made by some, I wonder how much genuine effort and outside the box thinking was put into making the machines perform as well as many, many other Komori machines.

 

[John Arneson]

komori picture framing

komori picture framing

Alios,
Thank you very much for your reply, as a mater of fact when I took the photo the other day I was doing exactly that. We will see what happens. I will keep you posted.
John

 

[John Arneson]

komori picture framing

komori picture framing

Cincyinkslinger,
You say you have been around hundreds of Komori's? I have been running them for 20 years. I would always swear by them until now. I have only run 4 in this time how many have you actually run. I do not mean any disrespect sir, but I have been told,even by Komori that this is the cleanest machine in the northwest. I am sorry sir but your reply seemed a bit offensive to me. I am just a pressman trying to make a recalcitrant machine cooperate.
John

 

[fasteddie]

Komori Picture framing

Komori Picture framing

For the 10 years I'v been running Komori's at my current shop we've had picture framing. Sometimes it is worse than others but you learn to live with it. If it causes too much trouble we cut the packing. Thank God for Automatic bc cleaners!

 

[GazKL440]

We have 2 Komori's, a 26/5 and a 40/4, and with identical ink and chemistry, the 26" does NOT frame and the 40" does... ???

Bit of a mystery, but through trial and error of different fountain solutions (ink has stayed the same-Hostmann Steinberg) we have minimized the issue, but not rid ourselves of it entirely. Both presses are set well within specs re roller pressure and blankets/packing are perfect as fitted new with about .005 compression when removed.

Maybe just a machine issue?? I don't know but both presses are still highly productive so no biggie really

 

[reflexin']

Hmm....I've only skimmed through the replies on this particular thread. This may have already been mentioned...but I wonder what the temperature in your water pan is. Perhaps its not draining and replenishing newer cooler etch fast enough? I know a hot press can do this among other things.

 

[John Arneson]

Thanks for your reply.

I had the same thought here about a year ago, I switched to high velocity impellers and I am maintaining a pan temp. of 60F.