konica 6500 -xerox 5000

[dgraves8rd]

We have 2 - KM 6500 with folding and saddle stitching. We recently purchased the second last month. Our average click per month is 200,000 12 x 18. This is on one machine. We have over 3 million clicks on it. We have had problems in the past (we one of the first to purchase it), but these problems were fixed. The machine is only as good as your service technician. Our tech is very good on fixing any and all issues. Most issues are due to the amount of clicks we put on the machine, which is why we purchased another. I talk with others who also have Xerox 5000 and 7000. They too have service issues.

 

[lkl7255]

The only downside in my opinion is the glossy output on the 5000, which is also harder to laminate. But maybe with the AP version this was improved as well? Otherwise check the 7000, which has in my opinion much nicer print.

Hi there!
With the 5000 and newer 5000AP, there really isn't a change in gloss appearance (there IS, but not noticable by most humans!); You can add Variable Gloss Management Profiles to your RIP though which allows you to control the gloss on some jobs...
With the 7000AP/8000AP there was a difference in gloss from the older models.

Also, I haven't tested this myself, but in regards to laminating... The 260 uses EA toner and the 5000AP uses conventional toner. I was told that the 5000AP laminates pretty well (and you can cut it), and you can laminate on the 260 output as well but if you cut it (say into postcards or trading cards or something) it can sometimes peel... I think laminate on the 260 and EA toner based products needs to be touching white/unprinted paper to adhere the best... (I will have to check on that though).

 

[lfelton]

Hi there!
With the 5000 and newer 5000AP, there really isn't a change in gloss appearance (there IS, but not noticable by most humans!); You can add Variable Gloss Management Profiles to your RIP though which allows you to control the gloss on some jobs...
With the 7000AP/8000AP there was a difference in gloss from the older models.

Also, I haven't tested this myself, but in regards to laminating... The 260 uses EA toner and the 5000AP uses conventional toner. I was told that the 5000AP laminates pretty well (and you can cut it), and you can laminate on the 260 output as well but if you cut it (say into postcards or trading cards or something) it can sometimes peel... I think laminate on the 260 and EA toner based products needs to be touching white/unprinted paper to adhere the best... (I will have to check on that though).

There's quite a bit of good information on this forum about laminating the output from toner based digital printers that you might find useful.

In general, if you want a good solid bond to printed sheets where silicon oil (or wax in the case of EA toners & similar) you will need either hydropneumatic pressure on the laminator's nip or laminate with an adhesive formulated for the purpose (we currently use various types of D&K's "Superstick"). You will sometimes need to use both, for example our laminating line uses hydropneumatic pressure, but we will still use a nylon based superstick for book covers, where we want to be absolutely positively sure of no lift on the hinges. There are still some problem stocks though that you need to be wary of - we haven't managed to get a good bond onto Colotech Gloss with heavy toner coverage, that tends to silver and not bond well.

Hope that helps.

 

[Craig]

Hi there!
With the 5000 and newer 5000AP, there really isn't a change in gloss appearance (there IS, but not noticable by most humans!); You can add Variable Gloss Management Profiles to your RIP though which allows you to control the gloss on some jobs...
With the 7000AP/8000AP there was a difference in gloss from the older models.

Also, I haven't tested this myself, but in regards to laminating... The 260 uses EA toner and the 5000AP uses conventional toner. I was told that the 5000AP laminates pretty well (and you can cut it), and you can laminate on the 260 output as well but if you cut it (say into postcards or trading cards or something) it can sometimes peel... I think laminate on the 260 and EA toner based products needs to be touching white/unprinted paper to adhere the best... (I will have to check on that though).

Is there a reason for the less noticeable gloss appearance on the 5000AP? I know it is quite to opposite with our 8000AP.

What are the variable gloss management profiles and how do they effect the gloss???

 

[smatros]

craig, the variable gloss is more like security feature existing only on the 5000 model. I've seen some results and they are not good enough to use it as a spot gloss coating type or similar, but they can be used for "hiding" some extra 3rd level of print in the image. Not sure (besides tickets or similar) when you can really use (and sell) such feature.

 

[smatros]

Also, I haven't tested this myself, but in regards to laminating... The 260 uses EA toner and the 5000AP uses conventional toner. I was told that the 5000AP laminates pretty well (and you can cut it), and you can laminate on the 260 output as well but if you cut it (say into postcards or trading cards or something) it can sometimes peel... I think laminate on the 260 and EA toner based products needs to be touching white/unprinted paper to adhere the best... (I will have to check on that though).

Still, when you laminate output from DC2xx it can even touch the white, but may peel. It was not like this on the first generation toner for the 2xx series, but later they added more silicone due to absence of another ingredient (at least i was told so), and since then lamination is a problem. You have to use both, high pressure (we use the 7bar foliant machine, but we tried even on 15 bar without any difference) and temperature (depending on foil between 100 and 140 degrees Celsius / 212- 284 Fahrenheit), but it still show peeling when creasing. We tried GMP and D&K superstick lamination, the results are pretty similar. You can improve the results by leaving the prints for 24 hours before lamination.

With the Xerox 700 and a different type EA toner the situation is much better.

I do not know though how the dc5000 prints preform. I know that DC12 has far most problems of all xerox units, and since dc5000 uses similar fusing technology i am a bit skeptic.

 

[rsands]

we solved this problem of peeling...laminate onto silk paper...try it - it works on the dc250. we had factories upon factories...technicians upon technicians out and putting large amounts of pressure on the steel rollers and nothing...same old thing.

they accidentally laminated scrap 350gsm silk we had lying about from an old job and they cut a stack and it worked amazing and didn't peel...was only later when i seen what they laminated and was talking to their sales guy that it was actually 350gsm silk. the laminate attaches to the silk mostly and not the toner...solves all problems with a good sharp guillotine

 

[rsands]

trying to get it to lift is another thing! litho laminate lifted easier than the 350gsm silk laminate

 

[jbh]

when it comes to lamination, we've only had reliable results with prints off the KM6500, the Xerox 5252 and DC250 both had peeling issues. The ONLY way we could circumvent this was to outsource to a company that uses the new "digital friendly" (extra glue on the lamination) stuff - at 4 times the price of regular laminating film!

 

[amsman]

Lamination Issues

Lamination Issues

We tested the DCX 5000 and the DCX 700 extensively and the lamination was more than acceptable.

We purchased the DCX 5000AP which with the right Creo profile was noticably less glossy than the DCX 5000.

initialy tested. ( Acceptable Gloss, Faster, Reliability, and a more solid construction than the 700 )

We run an Orbit 2000 Auto Laminator and tested pretty much exactly as Smatros specified previously.

I trialed laminated black solid ( C90M90Y87K100 ) and various coverages on A3 and A4 310gsm sheets.

We nomally run about 10 bar and 115 Celsius on offset print, but with the digital we had the best results

at 12 bar and 122 Celsius and about 12mtrs a minute or 2100 A3's an hour. ( The speed is very important to good adhesion )

Everything everyone is describing is correct. The more uncovered board the better, the silicone oil does

leach away to lower levels after 12-24 hours.

At low pressure, about 8 bar down we noticed silvering.

We also tested the High Tack Laminates which work better, but are over the moon price wise. ( x 4 )

We are running with the X5000AP until a new model to replace the DCX 7 or DCX 8 is released.

Hope this helps.

 

[lkl7255]

Is there a reason for the less noticeable gloss appearance on the 5000AP? I know it is quite to opposite with our 8000AP.

What are the variable gloss management profiles and how do they effect the gloss???

Hi Craig-- I don't know how I missed your post. My apologies...

The DC8000 used to slow down to 40ppm, so in the AP mode, there is a 40ppm delta. The 5000 slowed down to 33pm, so there is only a 17ppm delta with the AP version. The more time paper spends in the fuser, the glossier look it tends to have, so the 8000AP stock is going through at a lot quicker speed than the 5000AP. Does that make sense or should I try explaining a different way?

The Variable Gloss Management Profiles are free (yay!) and the magic happens at the RIP. There has been a lot of testing done, but in a nutshell the toner levels are brought down depending on various options chosen. Less toner = less gloss, but less toner = less color, so we've worked hard with our partners (Creo and EFI) to create profiles that reduced gloss but also maintained color integrity.

Will you be going to On Demand in Philly? I can show you samples with the profiles and without, and then other samples with the profiles and ACQS! (Automatic Color Quality) It's pretty neat.

 

[Craig]

Crap, I was going to go to On Demand to finalize a folder purchase, but I will be doing that on Monday with Baum. Your explanation of the gloss difference is perfectly clear.

I will bet the ACQS is not a free upgrade! Figures a year after I get the AP, Xerox starts to realize it has the potential of an iGen in productivity.

 

[azizomran]

is 0.049 cents for a click or is it on a letter size?

is 0.049 cents for a click or is it on a letter size?

I have been in the color copy business since the days of the original canon CLC 1. We have a KM C500, and it is a piece of junk. We looked at the KM 6500 and the Xerox 5000. The Xerox is about twice the price of the KM 6500. When we looked at the quality differences, and the service behind the machine, we went with the Xerox 5000. The best machine we have ever had. It can run anything! Fantastic quality, great reliability, and service within 4 hours. Our full FSMA service contract is only .049 per copy. You need to get a better price on the service and go with the 5000. Konica will only bring you heartache. At 50,000 plus copies a month, even with the higher lease payments on the Xerox, you will only be paying about a penny a copy more for the much better Xerox. That is sure good insurance in my book. Also, keep in mind, that with Xerox doing the lease, it is much easier to upgrade to a new machine when the volume justifies a faster machine.

Hi Bert,
i just want to clarify because the price does seem extremely low 0.049 per click. is their a hidden reason behind getting such a low price.
awaiting your reply, thanks,

 

[Craig]

.049 is the same thing I pay per Click, no matter what size.

 

[User Name]

Manager

Manager

You need to get hold of your sales rep or his boss to bring down your click charges on the Xerox. Currently they are charging between 7-11 cents per click on the 5000. Tell them that you know a lot of clients that are only paying in that range and you want to re-nogiate a deal and see how it goes. In my experience they have always brought the price down to be competitive.

The 5000 is by far one of the best low cost production machine built. You will not like the minolta once you have a xerox, your clients will complain and go elsewhere.

amin

Mr amin
Do you know any one who have renegotiated the clik charges from xerx
syed

 

[User Name]

Manager

Manager

Mr Amin
Do you know any one who has renegotiated the rates with xerox, if you do please can you give me his name and number

 

[ZeeBees]

I have been running the C6500 for a year and we average between 80K - 125K per month. My service is great response time 3-4 hrs.
I have also ran the Xerox 5000, 2045 and 2060. I prefer the C6500 over the Xerox you get the fuser oil marks on heavy stock displacement
on blacks even the 7000 you have displacement on blacks and the fuser oil. On our C6500 we have no streaks all color are solid and
we run mostly 12 x 18 (10 - 12pt c2s). Registration is perfect running from tray 4 and 5. Sounds like you guys have bad techs.

Edited by: kralc on Jul 3, 2008 6:03 PM

I agree with the remarks on 6500 streaking. We usually start getting heavy streaks withen a couple hundred clicks following service, except when the other service guy comes by, can go over 10,000 clicks without a streak after that guy services the machine.
side note: we've recently been told our service provider is canceling our contract because we print too many black and whites. We average about 1 million clicks per year, about 700-800 K of those in black and white. Our price is .011 for black, and .055 for color. I'm not seeing any indication in our contract that he can cancel us for overuse, nor are there any limits or restrictions on quantities, and the machine seems entirely capable of between 3 to 5 million clicks per year. He says he's losing his shirt on servicing our machine, I say, not my fault. we use all papers within Konica Spec, and have the usual service, nothing unusual.
Don't know how to handle that situation. I think the company surely has customer relation issues, but would like to keep the machine and our rates without negotiation and without sueing for his breach of contract.

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

I'd start looking for a new service provider or a new machine now. We had a Xerox 700 through a Global Imaging Dealer who decided we were using too much toner and would only send 1 or 2 cartridges per shipment despite the fact that we ordered 10 of each color. Luckily we started looking right away for new equipment and the Xerox 5000 was installed within 3 weeks. It did cost us about $800 in legal fees as our Lawyer had to place the orders for toner in the interim (with a little reminder of what would happen if they don't ship it).

After the toner issues started every part was magically on "backorder" and would take 2-3 days to show up. If they don't want to service the unit, they have very painful ways of making that happen.

 

[ZeeBees]

Thanks, I see the Konica breach of contract as a positive thing, and have started re-shopping.
Funny, they did the same thing about limiting our toner usage several months ago. Then we Raised some cane when we were doing large runs and ran out of toner as they couldn't supply them quickly enough.
Konicas' aren't that bad machines, but they have a long way to go to maintain customer relationships.

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

I'm betting it was a KM dealer that told you no more? We no longer accept quotes from dealers. We will only use the manufacturers direct channel for equipment. Every dealer we've ever worked with have involved lawyers.