konica 6500 -xerox 5000

[notaproductiondevice]

who else is furious about the performance Konica's 6500 'e' or tower Fiery

who else is furious about the performance Konica's 6500 'e' or tower Fiery

If you are driving one of these machines around a Konica or Cannon or Xerox or Richo or Sharp sales studio DRIVE IT LIKE A RENTAL CAR. Put everything you might possibly need to run, in every order, variation, orientation and make them let you use it for at least 4-5 hours a day for a week before you make your decision. Check the machine serivce log, make sure they have one and make sure the service tech does NOT have a real good chance to get to it between your uses. And if you are buying a 6500 with an embedded fiery hanging off the back, then make sure that is what you are testing on. Run all kinds of files, use the software, feel this baby up. These things for the most part are like very nice or even luxury cars.

I would reccomend the same procedure WITH any digital copier or 'production' digital press you are being sold or falling for.

By you destops at Costco where you can take them back if they screw up or you hate them.

ALREADY FEELING THE PAIN....

Were you sold a machine that was PRINT PRODUCTION, capable of a wide variety of stocks.

Did you buy into it? Are paying a lease, are you panicing. Has it performed as well as the Salesman showed you in the studio; Or has it been hell for you? If so what have you experienced? What do you use it for, what stocks, different sizes, or do you generally run the same exact thing?

Do you get roller marks with thick stocks and lines on larger stock after running smaller stock. Did they try try again and again to make them go away to no avail.

Has anyone has fusing or image units replaced before the life ended, if so about at how many clicks? And how many times for each? check your log if to be sure.

Mine has been broken every week since I have had it, either the same thing or something new, about 70/30.

This is a nightmare I can't seem to wake up from.

Is anybody out there going through the same hell?

 

[DianneB]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

I currently use the 6500 about 54,000 clicks per month. The only major issue I have found is when we run lots of 8.5x11 or 11x17 size paper and then go to 12x18 or 13x19 size paper, the fusing units leaves roller marks down the 12 or 13 inch side of the paper. We usually end up having to replace the rollers in the fuser before running the large size stock. Other than that we are quite happy with our 6500. We are a commercial printer and I run anything from business cards to booklets of varying stocks and weights on our machine, without to many major issues.

Di

 

[dencen]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

after months of getting nowhere with xerox, we are close to a deal for the canon 6000vp.

The demo on the canon went very well.

Just wondering again,if any one has any thoughts.

The canon will run us about 10cents a click (lease and service)


Thanks everyone for their input on this thread,it has been very helpful.

 

[BertThePrinter]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

When you say your are "Getting nowhere with Xerox." What exactly do you mean?
Pricing too high?
Did not like the machine?
??
Just wondering, because we ABSOLUTELY LOVE the Xerox 5000. Keep in mind that there have been little or no complaints from Xerox 5000-8000 owners. There have been multiple complaints from KM and Canon owners.
That is me 2 cents worth

Bert

P.S. The Xerox 5000 for 120,000 copies would cost:
base lease and service for 30,000 copies $3,888.75
90,000 overage copies @.049/copy $4,410.00
Total machine service and supplies for 120,000 copies $8,298.78
that is only $.0692 per copy!

Edited by: BertThePrinter on Jun 25, 2008 10:01 AM

 

[dencen]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

when I say getting nowhere,their solution to lowering my price is to extend my lease 2 years.
this ends up costing far more than if i continue to pay my current monthlies.

I understand how wonderful the 5000 is,but at the price we are paying it is too expensive,and canon is offering an attractive package

 

[Craig]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

Are you dealing with a Xerox Production Solution Executive or a dealer
rep.?

 

[dencen]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

I am dealing with a xerox executive.

my current costs for running my 2 5000s is approx .15 a click including lease and service.

canons offer for 2 6000vps will run about .09 a click

 

[Craig]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

Is it me, or do you get the same feeling buying a Production machine is like buying a car????

I guess the only thing to do is go with your gut on who will provide the best service. Both are quite equal overall in putting color on paper. Now to me it would be down to support. I have had bad experiences with Canon, NOT the dealer but Canon USA they just flat out would not support my CLC4000. They new they had a bad product and my dealer and me were taking the hit. All Canon would do is acknowledge the issues. That's why after 12 years with Canon equipment I when with Ricoh and Xerox.

Either machine looks like it would fill the ticket for your volume, but make sure you take into consideration room for growth too.

 

[kralc]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

I have been running the C6500 for a year and we average between 80K - 125K per month. My service is great response time 3-4 hrs.
I have also ran the Xerox 5000, 2045 and 2060. I prefer the C6500 over the Xerox you get the fuser oil marks on heavy stock displacement
on blacks even the 7000 you have displacement on blacks and the fuser oil. On our C6500 we have no streaks all color are solid and
we run mostly 12 x 18 (10 - 12pt c2s). Registration is perfect running from tray 4 and 5. Sounds like you guys have bad techs.

Edited by: kralc on Jul 3, 2008 6:03 PM

 

[JRV]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

Mark, I'm curious about this machine too. I have heard good and bad about it. Did your company ever end up buying one and if so, how do you like it?

 

[Cjaer]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

I work for a company that provides both the Konica and Xerox machines. They are both really different. The Xerox is going to have a higher capital aquisition cost however edge out the KM in reliability, perticularly at the higher print volumes. Quality is definately in the Xerox side. The KM provides good enough to very good quality depending on a variety of factors, is cheap and offers excellent substrate flexibility for the money.

I've also sold the Canon 7000 before leaving IKON. It's a great machine when it runs without issues. At the time I was working with them reliability was hit or miss. Can't say for certain that is still the case, however most of the installed base I am in touch with are satisfied however not overwhelmed with that product.

I was many years as a print providor and outside of self interest I've been burned too many times by canon color (CLC700, 1000, 5000, 1100, IR3200)

I cover the Puget Sound area if anyone is there

 

[random]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

hello,

Sorry but I have to speak up here. I am a biased as I work on c6500 but xerox reps must be spamming this forum as I have not heard so much rubbish.

1. Most of my clients have a c6500 and a 5000 back to back and i have not seen a 5000 yet that does not streak from oil.

2. If your machine is installed properly you should have no more than 1mm skew duplex at worst!

3. The 5000 has an inherent problem with the write units so those of you who have had a machine for over 12 months expect to have problems printing evenly across the page very shortly.

4 I have never had a problem matching the output of a 5000.

Those of you that have had problems with your 6500 this is a shame as your agent has let you down the 65 is by far a better machine.

If you are stuck get a 700 over a 5000, that engine is a dog

 

[Jeremy]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

We had a 6500 in our shop on a trial period last summer. We got it from a dealer, not KM, and it just didn't work. It had the inline booklet maker and stapler finisher, the extra capacity drawers, a lot of stuff. There were a lot of issues including poor service and the machine was down a lot, but it all stemmed from not buying directly from Konica. That machine went back.

A Xerox salesman brought us to their showroom in NYC (impressive) and bought me a $17 cheeseburger (tasted like seven bucks). What we didn't like about the 5000 was that spot gloss look it has. While the resolution may be better than the 6500, we've actually had customers bring in prints with that inconsistant sheen and say they don't like that "look" and won't do business with us if we print like that too. Xerox makes a smaller machine that looks like a iGen and they don't have anything in between.

All said and done, we pitted KM against Ikon and got a great deal on our lease and a .045 click cost plus a bunch of extras. We've never had a problem with quality or streaking and since we've had Konica servicing it, we've never had a problem with service. The machine is seldom down and the Fiery doesn't give us any problems, either. In fact, we're getting ready to integrate it with our MIS, just cause we can (aside from the other advatages of JDF).

 

[lfelton]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

Interesting topic for me as we are just finishing building out our new digital print room and finally have enough room to add more kit.

We saw the KM last week and my operations manager really liked it. I liked the price (a lot), but felt that the test images lacked "punch", especially when printed on gloss stocks and flesh tones did not appear "right". Of course that might just be the artwork they were using or the lighting in their show room, so we're having KM and Xerox run some of our "challenging" digital jobs and then do an apples for apples comparison.

We were trundling along the line of buying another Xerox (a 7000AP), but the capital aquisition costs are pretty compelling for the KM, so I'd appreciate any feedback KM 6500 users have.

My first question is duty cycle (which is only 150K impressions a month). If my math is correct, that's only half a shift (4hrs)? KM are pretty firm that's the max duty cycle. What's your experience? We'd ideally want to run it single shift at a maximum of 250K per month and would expect to get 3-5 years use. Realistic or not, what's your experience?

Second question relates to the new 80ppm KM machine expected at the end of this year / beginning of next. We don't have a lot of information on this, except that the sales guy said that it's a "totally new print engine". Does anyone have more info, i.e. is the duty cycle much higher and is it really going to be available in 6-8 months?

 

[Craig]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

Has anyone seen anything printed from the Xerox 5000AP? I have an 8000AP and it does not have the same wet fuser oil look as the 5000. I know I have a different fuser than the regular 8000, just wondering if they made changes to the 5000AP in that area as well. When you print in All Weights mode you get a more matted look, we run almost everything in All Weights mode.

When looking at the 5000 vs the KM6500 check out the paper paths, see who has the larger sweeping curves and metal vs plastic. Believe it or not that will have an effect on the amount of jamming. Also look for customer replaceable parts (Fuser Webs, Corotrons, Waste Toner Bottles...) saves a lot of extra service calls for a 5 minute fix.

I just saw something in Digital Publishing Solutions magazine that Ricoh has a C900 which is 90 ppm and doesn't slow down for heavy weights. Yet another option.

 

[random]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

Craig,

I think your talking about the c500 which was without a doubt a bit of dog. The c6500 has no plastic parts in the paper path other than idle rollers that are sitting on ballbearings rather than brass bushings you find in a xerox.

As for jamming c6500's don't, unless your feeding something that you wouldn't feed thru any other printer.

I think it is a bit on the nose for the price you pay for a 5000 on FSMA they expect you to do all the serviceing.

 

[printguy]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

How much volume are you printing per month and are you happy with the C6500? We are looking at the C6500 to handle the smaller runs, mostly on 12.5 x 17" 100# cover, coated 1 side. Sales rep says we could run 150,000 per month with no problem......but he's a salesman, so I expect him to say that. We are looking at the Xerox 5000 and Canon 6000, but Konica's price point and overall cost of ownership is compelling. Quality is also very good. Any feedback as to what you like and don't like about the printer would be appreciated.

 

[X33]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

I think you really need to check out the new Xerox 700 Digital Color Press ... equipment, productivity, media handling, image quality and pricing are amazing !

http://www.xerox.com/digital-printing/printers/digital-press/xerox-700/enus.html

 

[Mark]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

Yes we ended up getting the Konica C6500P. We've had it about two weeks now. So we are still playing for the most part.
I've run a few short jobs and it has been pretty painless. Quality is ok, for a copier .
I think most jams have been due to a lack of experience with the machine.

I think sales is trying to "stump the band" since I'm getting a wide variety of jobs. full coverage, folded on 100 lb cover; mixed media, slip sheets, staples, hole punch, step and repeat, preprinted foil stamped masters, etc.

We run Brisque so I'm used to more editability, but as I said I'm still playing with it.

I did manage to load toner without putting an eye out.

 

[Craig]

Re: konica 6500 -xerox 5000

Hay Random,
I think you need to tell Mark about how the 6500's don't jam, or maybe it's just operator error, wait better yet coming from a tech. like yourself "it's the paper". :^0

I had the pleasure of visiting one of our local in-plant print shops, who has had the 6500 for about 4 months now. I thought it was odd that they are farming out their digital color work to me. After talking to the operator and looking at the machine I can now see why. They were happy for the first 2 months and it has been trouble since then. Seems like it will only reliably duplex paper less than 220gsm, anything over that is hit and miss. Colors drop off for no apparent reason, they have multiple fusers and need change them out when they change paper sizes due to edge marks. (Yet they don't use fuser oil hmmmm.) With the incredibly short paper path, I can see why they are having so many jams on the larger sheets (11x17 and 12x18) it's not finished fusing before the sheet is starting to duplex.

Again, I will say to anyone looking at a "production level" machine. Open it up and look at the paper path, look for long sweeping curves, looks for a registration area where the sheet is driven up against a registration guide, ask for a Customers Expectation Document to find out what the manufacture states the machine will do vs what the salesperson is saying. Don't buy a business color device and expect it to run at 100,000 + over sized sheets a month, every month, they are not made for it.

Sales people are great at putting lipstick on a pig, but in the end it's still a pig.