Konica Minolta C6501e/ep, is it worthy buying?

[Frantisek Kolek]

Dear colleauges,

after 18 years in of-set only we have decided to add up to it a digital machina.
As far as we have searched through the market, it looks, that in the "middle class level" of digital printing machines the KM 6501e/ep looks as the best choice.

Compared to Canon c6000 it is about 60& its prize (less than 50.000 eur compared to 100.000 for Canon); it looks as well that the service fees are quite low- 0.065 for a full colour A3+ size.

Our main cause in deciding what to buy is to have really a competitive machine (in quality) for about 40.000 cliques a month. We hope to concentrate on personilized books, and general marketing products.

I kindly ask you to put down few impressions and ideas about KM 6501e/ep. It could greatly help me/us since this is the first contact with the segment of digital printing for us.

Thanks,

Frantisek

 

[X33]

why not the Xerox 700?

 

[rjb]

km

km

We have xerox and km but the km is cheaper to buy and no monthly service contract. Just make sure which machine you choose has good service people.

 

[Trish]

Don't trust a salesperson

Don't trust a salesperson

Dear colleauges,

after 18 years in of-set only we have decided to add up to it a digital machina.
As far as we have searched through the market, it looks, that in the "middle class level" of digital printing machines the KM 6501e/ep looks as the best choice.

Compared to Canon c6000 it is about 60& its prize (less than 50.000 eur compared to 100.000 for Canon); it looks as well that the service fees are quite low- 0.065 for a full colour A3+ size.

Our main cause in deciding what to buy is to have really a competitive machine (in quality) for about 40.000 cliques a month. We hope to concentrate on personilized books, and general marketing products.

I kindly ask you to put down few impressions and ideas about KM 6501e/ep. It could greatly help me/us since this is the first contact with the segment of digital printing for us.

Thanks,

Frantisek

They are only looking for their commission, next month they won't remember your name.Stay away from Konica Minolta and Ikon relabeled printers.Personal experience with the Ikon CPP650 made by Konica Minolta.Defective parts and sold the printer anyway.Shame on them.Ikon doesn't make anything of their own anyway, it's someone elses.Konica Minolta is in limbo looking for a home.I personally just bought a Xerox and a Oce.Have a good track record, parts and supplies are easier to get and more affordable.Ikon has the market cornered on parts and supplies on their machines.There are more techs trainned and available for the Xerox.EvenIkon techs are not quite sure what to do with the CPP650.

 

[andreisarbu]

Km6501

Km6501

Xerox 700 should be very similar in terms of price, cost per click and TCO in general....

 

[rjb]

digital

digital

I think you are wise in adding digital to your arsenal. Also, I am not a salesman. We have 2 xerox (nuvera & 250) and 2 km machines (1050 & 6501) The most important thing is service. You must have good support available to fix a problem machine. We have good service on both brands. In the market today price is also important. It's kind of like buying a car, what can you afford? Same way with digital, why pay $70,000 when you can get similar for $50,000. No matter what you buy/lease in 3 -5 years technology is going to change so in that amount of time you must learn the capabilities of the machine, market it and hopefully make enough to make the payments. All brands have lemons so you must do your homework. Inline or offline finishing, rips, handling different weight paper, color back up, color adjustments, click charges, are just some of the things to consider. It took 12 months before we figured out what we wanted. I also talked with customers and asked if there was something we could do for them that we weren't doing now. Talk to people that have the brands/machines you are interested in and hopefully they will be honest. I have nothing against xerox but we love our km's.

 

[gig0]

Took the digital plunge with a KM 6501 back in January and we're at 750,000 clicks now. Drums/ pm service about every three weeks and shooting for a million clicks by the end of the year. We didn't choose Xerox because the image quality sucked and looked too waxy.

 

[stueey]

Is the 6501 really better than the X700?

Is the 6501 really better than the X700?

Took the digital plunge with a KM 6501 back in January and we're at 750,000 clicks now. Drums/ pm service about every three weeks and shooting for a million clicks by the end of the year. We didn't choose Xerox because the image quality sucked and looked too waxy.

Are you saying the X700 still looks waxy like the DC240/250 does? How have you found front to back registration? I've been using a DC240 and I can get it to be quite good BUT it takes a fair bit of attention to do so and there are way too many feed issues but I am only using the standard tray 5. Also the sheets sticking together due to static is a nightmare and external finishing equipment has a total nightmare with the Xerox DC240 prints. I was under the impression that the X700 was way way better and had a more litho look.

As far as the KM6501 goes I have heard that the front to back registration isn't as good as the X700 (apparently the 700 feeds very accurately from the oversize high capacity feeders) but the KM looks more litho and suffers less from page curl. A Xerox engineer who I get on really with informs me the the X700 has had great response from clients for colour consistency when rather than calibrate they set it to factory defaults. One really scary thing I've heard about the KM6501 is that the quality has a habit of declining after 6 months, I don't quite understand how this would be because surely with a full service agreement any part that has deteriorated will just be replaced.

My current feelings are that the KM6501 has the finish that I would most like but for piece of mind I'm thinking of the X700 as if it's a reasonable improvement over my DC240 as well as having a way lower click charge then it would do the job I require.

I'd like to know which is the fastest at printing on coated stock, from 130gsm to 300gsm and I'd love to hear responses to my comments, I've read few threads on this subject already but have still not really had anything like a conclusion.

Thanks in advance to anyone who gives me some good input.

 

[UberTech]

Are you saying the X700 still looks waxy like the DC240/250 does? How have you found front to back registration? I've been using a DC240 and I can get it to be quite good BUT it takes a fair bit of attention to do so and there are way too many feed issues but I am only using the standard tray 5. Also the sheets sticking together due to static is a nightmare and external finishing equipment has a total nightmare with the Xerox DC240 prints. I was under the impression that the X700 was way way better and had a more litho look.

As far as the KM6501 goes I have heard that the front to back registration isn't as good as the X700 (apparently the 700 feeds very accurately from the oversize high capacity feeders) but the KM looks more litho and suffers less from page curl. A Xerox engineer who I get on really with informs me the the X700 has had great response from clients for colour consistency when rather than calibrate they set it to factory defaults. One really scary thing I've heard about the KM6501 is that the quality has a habit of declining after 6 months, I don't quite understand how this would be because surely with a full service agreement any part that has deteriorated will just be replaced.

My current feelings are that the KM6501 has the finish that I would most like but for piece of mind I'm thinking of the X700 as if it's a reasonable improvement over my DC240 as well as having a way lower click charge then it would do the job I require.

I'd like to know which is the fastest at printing on coated stock, from 130gsm to 300gsm and I'd love to hear responses to my comments, I've read few threads on this subject already but have still not really had anything like a conclusion.

Thanks in advance to anyone who gives me some good input.

Im not going to knock the x700 but go and test the registration, you will find out pretty quick which is better. I have a few c6500 pushing over a million and the odd one heading towards 2. Takes longer than 6 months to do 1.5million. However it's only as good as the support, like any product.

 

[lfelton]

We've got one 11 month old 6501 that's on a million SRA3s. Like any machine, you've got to work at making sure you know it inside out and good service is critical.

Uber is dead right. Comfort zone for a properly sorted 6501 is 100-120K clicks a month running short run work single shift. You'd get more with longer runs of course, so possibly some people are clicking higher than that per machine.

And Frantisek... maybe prices have come down a lot in the last couple of months (I know they have on the X700 as I keep on getting offered them), but I think at 50K euros you should double check the spec of the machine you are being offered. Save yourself a lot of heartache and make sure you have a system 7 specification as a minimum.

...and one last thing, if you are going to spend 100K on a Canon, why aren't you looking at a X7002 as well? ACQS is a killer feature and should save a ton of time.

 

[Klew]

km6501 running like a dream!!!

km6501 running like a dream!!!

Hi im a newbie here but thought id give some input.
I recently open a traditional print shop, and i got the km 6501 with lct and small finisher, last month with 100k already. i was deciding between the km and the x700 as i know the quality is so much better with xerox, but went with the km as it meet my budget.

ive also been reading on here people getting jamming with heavier stock on the 6501, but i cant complain as i run 350gsm duplex no problem, ive even tried 400gsm board single side with ease!

and for everybody complaining about registration, i found a link were you can set your registration for the different paper types once and never have to do it again as you can recall those setting.link below:

http://proofs.groupimaging.com/gi/KonicaMinolta/C6500PaperAdjustmentProcedure.doc

overall im really happy with the km6501 so far.

if i added an external rip would this improve the quality of the print??

 

[stueey]

Hi im a newbie here but thought id give some input.
I recently open a traditional print shop, and i got the km 6501 with lct and small finisher, last month with 100k already. i was deciding between the km and the x700 as i know the quality is so much better with xerox, but went with the km as it meet my budget.

ive also been reading on here people getting jamming with heavier stock on the 6501, but i cant complain as i run 350gsm duplex no problem, ive even tried 400gsm board single side with ease!

and for everybody complaining about registration, i found a link were you can set your registration for the different paper types once and never have to do it again as you can recall those setting.link below:

http://proofs.groupimaging.com/gi/KonicaMinolta/C6500PaperAdjustmentProcedure.doc

overall im really happy with the km6501 so far.

if i added an external rip would this improve the quality of the print??

I can't believe you think the quality is better on the x700, I ran my own files on my own stocks through both and the Xerox could do some really eye catching glossy prints and the very small fine text was superior to the KM but that was it. It's still got the heavy toner finish that a lot of finishing equipment doesn't like and it still looks like a Xerox. The KM (I opted for the 5501 as I run a lot of 300gsm SRA3 and the speed difference is minimal between that and the 6501 on thick stock) has a finish far more comparable to Litho and I've already won over a client who wouldn't touch me when I was using a Xerox. The KM is way easier to laminate as well.

The duplexing seems great so far on the Konica BUT I had a nightmare recently when I bought in a large batch of 300gsm silk and it was like the grain was going in the wrong direction as it wouldn't duplex at all.

Thanks very much for posting that link, I've definitely not got that procedure quite right before and will give it a go when I get back in on Monday.

 

[Klew]

I can't believe you think the quality is better on the x700, I ran my own files on my own stocks through both and the Xerox could do some really eye catching glossy prints and the very small fine text was superior to the KM but that was it. It's still got the heavy toner finish that a lot of finishing equipment doesn't like and it still looks like a Xerox. The KM (I opted for the 5501 as I run a lot of 300gsm SRA3 and the speed difference is minimal between that and the 6501 on thick stock) has a finish far more comparable to Litho and I've already won over a client who wouldn't touch me when I was using a Xerox. The KM is way easier to laminate as well.

The duplexing seems great so far on the Konica BUT I had a nightmare recently when I bought in a large batch of 300gsm silk and it was like the grain was going in the wrong direction as it wouldn't duplex at all.

Thanks very much for posting that link, I've definitely not got that procedure quite right before and will give it a go when I get back in on Monday.

i wouldnt say its anywere close to litho print! Cause when you compare the two
side by side you can tell the difference with ease!
What rip are you using with your 5501?
I agree laminating km print is better than xerox, as the toner comes off when laminating xerox prints.

Why did your client that you won over not touch you with a xerox??

i havent use 300gsm silk but i did do a run of 2000 SRA3 on 350gsm Gloss duplexing, and it only jammed once, i know the km isnt spec for 350gsm, but my tech said is not a problem if you release the pressure of the rollers.

Does anyone else run anything higher than 300gsm on their km???

 

[stueey]

i wouldnt say its anywere close to litho print! Cause when you compare the two
side by side you can tell the difference with ease!
What rip are you using with your 5501?
I agree laminating km print is better than xerox, as the toner comes off when laminating xerox prints.

Why did your client that you won over not touch you with a xerox??

i havent use 300gsm silk but i did do a run of 2000 SRA3 on 350gsm Gloss duplexing, and it only jammed once, i know the km isnt spec for 350gsm, but my tech said is not a problem if you release the pressure of the rollers.

Does anyone else run anything higher than 300gsm on their km???

I do not agree with you about telling it apart form litho so easily at all. I've had a frend of mine who owns a really good B1 heidelberg press and he was shocked at how well my Konica could print at at what the finish was like. I'm not saying it would have fooled either of us but then we are nothing like the end client. The test files I used were of things I'd printed previously by litho and side by side they stood up remarkably well to the litho jobs.

I find that printing on paper for letterheads and suchlike that I can clearly notice it is a digital job but when I get on to silk stock that we also use for litho it is really not all that different. Oddly enough the test files that looked so close to litho were on a really cheap paper called Satimat Silk. On the same paper the Xerox 700 didn't look much better than my old DC240

The client I won over likes the fact that it is a notable step closer to a litho look.

The salesman agreed that I could buy the machine with the built in Fiery then he'd sort something out on the pricing if I wanted to exchange it for an external RIP. He was actually convinced that I didn't need to splash out for the external RIP and so far I am in agreement.

 

[Craig]

I'm not saying it would have fooled either of us but then we are nothing like the end client.

That is the key point to the offset vs digital comparison. I would venture today to say that the majority of the high end digital devices whether they use fuser oil or not... when you have a properly trained operator, 9 times out of 10 the average client wouldn't know if it were digital or offset. You and I can tell... the guy on the press can tell, but the customer really only cares that the job was produced in the most economical, quickest way and the quality meets their expectations.

 

[Klew]

ok i do agree most of the end users and public could not tell the difference.
does the km print nice on silk stock as i have only got gloss and uncoated stock?

ive also been reading here about the different system ie. system 7, how can you tell what system it is and what would the difference between them be.

much appreciated if someone could tell me

thanks

 

[stueey]

ok i do agree most of the end users and public could not tell the difference.
does the km print nice on silk stock as i have only got gloss and uncoated stock?

ive also been reading here about the different system ie. system 7, how can you tell what system it is and what would the difference between them be.

much appreciated if someone could tell me

thanks

I'm pretty sure that System 7 is just the name for a certain configuration of the printer, it's basically the 6501. I was lucky enough to deal with a sales guy who basically told me I should spend less and get a cheaper configuration based on his knowledge of what I do. I've started off with the most basic set up of a C5501 with a large capacity tray and no finisher as we have off line facilities. I was concerned about paper curl but so far it hasn't really been an issue. It notices quite a bit on single sided print at first but the curl for some reason doesn't have anything like the resistance it did on my old Xerox (probably because it uses a lot less heat but so does the X700 apparently) so in reality when everything has been trimmed down the curl hasn't noticed. If stock has been duplexed the flatness is very good. On the Océ version of the same machine that I had a demo of they had some finishing and the extra relay/decurl unit installed and duplexed 300gsm silk came out perfectly flat.

So far I have found that gloss stock prints really well but the toner finish on the KM is quite matt, to get it more glossy you have tell the printer that it is printing on thicker paper than it really is. This can be a problem if you're duplexing 300gsm paper as to get it to do this you have to tell the machine that it's only printing up to 256gsm. Silk so far seems to be excellent and definitely the stock that gives the nearest to litho appearance in my opinion.

 

[minutemanjon]

We may be having better luck than some of what I see in this forum. Our experience with the km6501/creo rip and other past digital machines suggests one must spend the time necessary to understand the equipment and find the all-important service folks willing to do the same. You can't just punch the button a expect perfection. This machine won't do that.

We have solved all of our 6501 issues so far by working with the machine and with a talented service tech. Our experience ---
Jams are not common. We successfully run the common cross section of text weights through cover, coated and non. Some stocks always run better than others and some days are better than others, but we experience excellent results.
Color output is very accurate through our runs, but we do the calibrations and so forth.
Registration is very good front to back if you take the time to setup the job properly. You can make it dead-on if you are interested.
The image quality is outstanding and consistent, even with photographic images. And the important part is our customers like the finished product.... very much. The offset vs. digital debate is not a popular topic within most of our customer base.

Is this machine an offset press? No, but we sell that too.

Excellent bang for buck + happy customers = profit = A good thing. Works for me.