Landa and other digital presses going to closed loop colour control.

[Deleted member 16349]

I find this disturbing in a way. I have seen more digital press suppliers taking the route to having closed loop colour control. In some cases it is also related to overall inspection technologies such as with the AVT system, but it is surprising that the new digital presses are not so inherently consistent as one might have thought.

Here is the latest Landa news on its partnership with AVT.

LANDA DIGITAL PRINTING SELECTS AVT AS A STRATEGIC PROVIDER FOR PRINT QUALITY CONTROL SOLUTION - Landa Nanography

So we go to digital printing because it is supposed to be more consistent than offset but then have to add closed loop to actually get there.

The funny thing is, that offset can be made more consistent without closed loop colour control if the press manufacturers really wanted to make better offset presses but they don't and have given up. Sad.

Anyhow this looks like a trend.

 

[gordo]

The article doesn't say "Landa and other digital presses going to closed loop colour control." Instead it talks about "print quality" inspection rather than color control specifically. Given the nature of Landa's process of imaging onto an intermediary carrier and then transferring to the final substrate there are likely many opportunities for failure (e.g. pinholes, etc.) which an automated inspection system would catch.

 

[chevalier]

I'm not saying the press manufacturers aren't selling it and using it to control their process but the main driver for us as a packaging convertor is the customer's demand to see quantifiable color data about the entire press run. More and more of our customers demand quality reporting that shows color measurement throughout the run. That doesn't mean printers weren't already doing this manually but integrating into the press takes the human fudging and faking out of the equation and in theory can give you measurement of every sheet produced.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

The article doesn't say "Landa and other digital presses going to closed loop colour control." Instead it talks about "print quality" inspection rather than color control specifically. Given the nature of Landa's process of imaging onto an intermediary carrier and then transferring to the final substrate there are likely many opportunities for failure (e.g. pinholes, etc.) which an automated inspection system would catch.

I never said the article stated "" .... ". You are inferring that my title implied that but it did not.

The Landa article was only for Landa's planned use of the AVT technology. If you think they are only going to inspect and not control, that is your view. If they are going to control, then that is basically closed loop. I think the implication was that there would be control also.

Yes, my post did not mention other digital printers. Sorry.

Here are two references for what AVT is doing with other digital printers.

AVT Unveils Digital Press Control Solution On New Gallus Digital Press - Label & Narrow Web

Advanced Vision Technology’s automatic inspection solution incorporated into new HP Indigo 20000 Digital Printing Press

X-Rite and Teckon are also working on this problem.

The idea of putting closed loop colour control on digital printers is not a new idea and there is probably a reason for it.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I'm not saying the press manufacturers aren't selling it and using it to control their process but the main driver for us as a packaging convertor is the customer's demand to see quantifiable color data about the entire press run. More and more of our customers demand quality reporting that shows color measurement throughout the run. That doesn't mean printers weren't already doing this manually but integrating into the press takes the human fudging and faking out of the equation and in theory can give you measurement of every sheet produced.

I can understand the customer's view point. But their demands for a quality report of the run is due to past history of printers not being able to meet those needs and not being perfectly honest about the run quality. If a printer could have produce very consistent product for the customer in the past, there would be no request for unneeded reports.

If we can show the customer that the product is always consistent, then they will not read reports that do not add value. Not reading such reports would be the conclusion of their Lean investigations.

 

[chevalier]

I hate to sound so cynical but it truly does not matter how accurate you are or have been in the past. In my observation most, but certainly not all of the people who demand quality control documentation are nothing more than glorified DMV employees (hopefully this colloquial reference translates). Their number one goal in their work is to merely show that they are doing something. Generally speaking they aren't actually looking at the documents just collecting them and when they do...They don't know what a dE, dH, etc. are. They don't know what GRACoL, SWOP, etc. are. Many times they don't even know that "four color process" and "CMYK" are the same thing.

Side comment:
Geeez! I can't even manage to edit this to make it sound sunnier. Perhaps its time to move on to something new career-wise.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I hate to sound so cynical but

Their number one goal in their work is to merely show that they are doing something. Generally speaking they aren't actually looking at the documents just collecting them and when they do...They don't know what a dE, dH, etc. are.

This is so depressing and I think true much too often. This also happens in many industries, not just printing.

I am going to find some ice cream to cheer myself up.

 

[Puch]

Back to the original topic.

"...it is surprising that the new digital presses are not so inherently consistent as one might have thought."

Yeah, there was a lot of wishful thinking when digital printing got widespread. But I do respect the manufacturers that they addressed many problems which arose throughout the years.

"So we go to digital printing because it is supposed to be more consistent than offset but then have to add closed loop to actually get there."

Manufacturers just adapt to the usage pattern of the machines they sell. I've seen some 1-color B/3 machines installed in office-like environments, but the majority of professional color printing happens in tightly controlled press rooms nowadays. If the digital devices would have been installed in similar environment, then they would offer similar consistency. I've seen such setups and those Xeroxes and Konicas had a remarkable repeatability.

"The funny thing is, that offset can be made more consistent without closed loop colour control if the press manufacturers really wanted to make better offset presses but they don't and have given up. Sad."

I think it's a question of investment and anticipated return. Mankind will invent anything and everything even if it's unusable, but you will only see that as a product if there is a demand for it. Those folks at Heidelberg & co. will always consult their spreadsheets before a new product announcement.

 

[MailGuru]

So we go to digital printing because it is supposed to be more consistent than offset but then have to add closed loop to actually get there.

I don't think this is true. In the beginning, as it is now, the "target" of digital has always been to get as close as possible to offset (i.e. they used offset as a comparison target to promote their machines). The challenge is, digital was never intended to be used for long runs (they were short-run on-demand machines). When used on long runs, there were many quality issues with regard to toner fading, streaking, ghosting, etc. due to the electro-mechanical nature of the digital print process itself.

In their continuing effort to mimic offset as close as possible, they knew they would either have to "re-invent" the electro CMYK process itself, or, alternatively add hardware and software to their product to continually monitor output and make adjustments on the fly when the print begins to deviate from the original source target.

-Best

MailGuru

 

[Deleted member 16349]

The challenge is, digital was never intended to be used for long runs (they were short-run on-demand machines). When used on long runs, there were many quality issues with regard to toner fading, streaking, ghosting, etc. due to the electro-mechanical nature of the digital print process itself.

This brings up an interesting thought. If one has a short run, then there might not be much of a consistency issue since the run in so short. Maybe today, when offset makes short runs, people don't think of consistency much either. They may not be happy with the print but variation might not be so easy to see on a small amount of printed material. Just a thought.

 

[aqazi81]

This brings up an interesting thought. If one has a short run, then there might not be much of a consistency issue since the run in so short. Maybe today, when offset makes short runs, people don't think of consistency much either. They may not be happy with the print but variation might not be so easy to see on a small amount of printed material. Just a thought.

I agree with you Erick.... I have ran jobs as low as 200 sheets on a 40 inch press and with these short quantities there is not much variation in the color.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I don't know what sort of problems you have encountered but from some of your posts it appears that you are disenchanted with offset printing, to say the least.

I am not disenchanted with the offset lithographic printing process. I know it has a great potential of improvement. I am disenchanted with the printing community that is not able to understand new thinking or wants to change.

On the issue about long runs being more consistent. I understand your point that in a long run, there is more time to get things tuned so there is a better chance to get to the desired target. But in doing that, there can be more of a total variation over the whole run than in a very short run where the desired target is not met but there is less chance to for major variation. Plus with a longer run, there are more chances for something to happen to make a disturbance, which one can see at times with a plot of the running densities, TVI etc.

That was just the thought and I don't suggest that short runs that are not to target and have less variation are better. The goal is to have the capability to have very short runs that are consistent and on target.

 

[D Ink Man]

I am not disenchanted with Landa nanographics. Just show me (Missouri again) sellable impressions. That's it. Loop closed.

D