Landa gets money and delays delivery

[Deleted member 16349]

Landa has a new stake holder, Altana Group that is investing something like $130M and will get a part of the company. This was reported also on WTT but in the WTT article, there was no mention of the delay in delivery of the presses.

An article in the UK's Printweek seems to be more comprehensive on reporting the story. There it is mentioned about the delay in delivery of six months and the unusual requirement that the final decision to deliver will be only decided when operators are happy. You can read the article from this link.

Landa secures €100m investment and updates press roll out plan | PrintWeek

Landa earlier had also commented that the delivery would not be done until EFI succeeded in supplying the required digital front end to drive high speed variable print. Funny, I thought variable print was not in the original first target printing conditions.

This brings up some interesting questions and issues.

Did Landa have to sell part of the company to get money because maybe he had some problems getting it without offering a stake in the business?

Are the excuses for not delivering presses to market now being prepared in order to deflect eventual blame?

This is all very interesting and of course these questions will not be important if and when the presses are successfully delivered to market.

Innovation is not so easy to do no matter how well it is hyped and financed. I hope the development group will eventually succeed but even if they do, it may be too late as others develop and sell products that meet market needs in a more timely manner.

 

[D Ink Man]

Benny or Bernie Madhoff?

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Benny or Bernie Madhoff?

Dave, that is a foolish comparison.

 

[D Ink Man]

Dave, that is a foolish comparison.

You have to keep a sense of humor in todays planet of print.

Erik, you need to lighten up at least sometimes to preserve your spot on this side of the earth.

D Ink Man

 

[chevalier]

Judging Altana by it's financial reports it is very much a company on the march. IIRC last year they bought the coatings division of Henkel. I suspect this has a lot to do with pigment and raw materials pricing as well as being able to harness Altana R&D knowledge in the same arena.

I'd much rather see a delayed fully developed product than a alpha or beta technology released to the market. I'm very excited about what nano tech is going to do for our industry even if Landa isn't the company that is first to deliver.

 

[gig0]

did anybody happen to get some actual prints from this press yet? All I've seen are some hyped-up scans on the internet, and thats it.

 

[D Ink Man]

Erik, please comment to last reply from gig0.

You should be wise to this.

D

 

[D Ink Man]

Maybe gOrdo has an answer to gig0's question.

No response from Erik, so he is the most likely guru to have the information (always does).

Everyone I am sure would sure like to know. Seeing is believing. Most curious.

D

 

[Deleted member 16349]

did anybody happen to get some actual prints from this press yet? All I've seen are some hyped-up scans on the internet, and thats it.

OK, I am commenting because D thinks it is something to comment on.

As far as samples go, what is the point if the process is not fully developed. Does one want to see a car in a dealers show room that is only half assembled. I don't think so. Samples at this stage only might show what is potentially possible and from some accounts, they looked good. The opinion that Landa has made is that he does not want to release the press until they are sure the print can be consistent and reliable. That is the right thing to do.

Again my view is that even if one has a lot of resources, that does not guarantee success and we will have to wait until there is a product or they give up in despair. And until they have a product, it is not a viable printing process. We should not assume it already is.

I have suspected that the problems they are having is with the blanket technology. Basically the Landa press is an inkjet press that is offsetting the dried image to the substrate via the blanket. Sounds like a cleaver idea but the more one looks at it, the more one can see problems.

Some months ago, I read that they were working on putting a precoat to the blanket before the ink hits it to help with full release. Recently I came across a patent application that discusses some issues regarding ink spreading on the blanket and releasing. The patent application was looking at the chemistry of this coating.

I am not so interested in the details but in what they were trying to overcome. This problem might be solved in some other way by the time the press gets fully developed but it was interesting to read between the lines on what they were working on.

Here is the link to the patent application (not a patent yet).

Patent WO2013132339A1 - Treatment of release layer - Google Patents

 

[D Ink Man]

Investing 130M$ is quite a venture given that major flaws and problems that exist without any time frame or assured possibility that they will ever be conquered. This is a key point in this writers opinion.

Of course the monies of some have different value and worth depending on the nature, condition of the investing entity.

Best of luck to Altana and the huge gamble they have partaken into this unproven endeavor.

D

 

[chevalier]

For a profitable (~8-20% margin depending on how you cut it) company with €1.765 billion in sales and €2.546 billion in assets a €100 million investment into a company and technology that has the potential to upend your primary market isn't exactly "betting the farm.". Add potential patent agreements, exclusive materials licensing and other sweeteners to the deal and you've hedged big.

2013 numbers used. Source (altana.com).

If you question the Landa track record remember that:

In 2000 the Hewlett Packard company made a $100m investment in Indigo, buying 14.8 million of Indigo's common shares, which represented 13.4 percent of the company's outstanding shares.[8] On September 6, 2001 HP announced that it will acquire the remaining outstanding shares of Indigo Indigo N.V. (NASDAQ: INDG) for approximately $629 million in HP common stock and a potential future cash payment of up to $253 million contingent upon Indigo's achievement of long-term revenue goals, for an aggregate potential payment of up to $882 million.[9]

Source: Indigo Digital Press - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regardless of whether Landa succeeds or flops - nanotech is here to stay and will drastically change this industry and countless others. It is not an IF it is a WHEN.

 

[D Ink Man]

Time will tell chevalier.

I am from Missouri, 'the Show Me State', so I eargerly await the 'WHEN", as you suggest.

Hopefully all will still be resperating.

D

 

[gordo]

Regardless of whether Landa succeeds or flops - nanotech is here to stay and will drastically change this industry and countless others. It is not an IF it is a WHEN.

Why?
I don't understand why there is so much interest in Landa's press. What are its unique benefits?

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Why?
I don't understand why there is so much interest in Landa's press. What are its unique benefits?

I am with you on this. Not sure what is so special.

The only thing I can think of is that the image might be much better on uncoated substrate since one is laminating a dried and shiny image to the substrate and therefore the substrate is not affecting the quality of the print. For all the complication of the process is adding, I don't see that that kind of benefit is worth it. I could be wrong.

Also there may be easier ways to do this with more conventional inkjet systems. Nano inks are being used already in inkjets, as I understand.

 

[D Ink Man]

The benefit as is being touted is the ability to change print forms on the fly, without stopping the press. It is described as 'push button' where as a chimpanzee can run the press.

Ideally it sounds wonderful and would lend itself to a shop that prints many small forms, <1000 impressions and quick delivery to customer was essential. The need would still exist to disseminate a load for the individual jobs to be seperated for final finishing and binding.

The instant polymerization of the ink film to many flexible substrates is another positive for expediting. But still, let's see it beyond prototype in a true production habitat.

Mr. Missouri D

 

[chevalier]

The ink is way more interesting to me than anything else. There are likely to be a number of ways to apply this beyond this machine. The metallic properties and behaviors of nano particles are potentially a huge gain for the industry. Look at all of the carton guys adding cold foil to their lineup.

AFAIK there isn't anything on the market that goes beyond the micro level but I could be wrong.

As far as the press goes:
Inkjet and xerography / electrophotography have serious caveats that this press appears to address.
A digital press for folding cartons that is actually properly sized and can handle the variety of substrates and caliper of the substrates. There is (my opinion) a huge market out there for high-end, short-run and customizable cartons that is currently massively underserved due to technological limitations and costs.

 

[D Ink Man]

The ink IS very interesting.

Transporation mode without a VEHICLE.

Wonder if Henry Ford would approve?

D

 

[Schnitzel]

The benefit as is being touted is the ability to change print forms on the fly, without stopping the press.

That ability already exists in every other digital press on the market.

 

[D Ink Man]

However, perhaps without the fanfare of the Landa contraption.

D

 

[Morgan Manning]

Another guy from MO here, and there is a lot of vaporware happening right now. I hope it does mature though, it sounds very interesting.

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