light production printers

[studioindustria]

We are leasing our first new production machine. In the light production category. Our list is Ricoh Pro C510s, the Konica Minolta AccurioPress 6120 and still determining a Xerox. We had a demo on the Ricoh, Minolta in a few days. Any comments from recent buyers would be helpful. Have not been happy with the Canon in this category so we didn't add it to the mix.

 

[kslight]

What kind of monthly volume, paper size/weight, simplex/duplex, color vs black and white, do you plan to run? The 6120 is a black and white printer, the C510s is color I guess (don't see a lot about this online)?

 

[studioindustria]

20K - 40K month, mostly 12" x 18" or 13" x 19" cover weight 80#C - 110#C color both sides. sheet to sheet and front to back registration is a must, decent heavy solids is necessary knowing it wound't be the same a high end machine.

 

[kslight]

20K - 40K month, mostly 12" x 18" or 13" x 19" cover weight 80#C - 110#C color both sides. sheet to sheet and front to back registration is a must, decent heavy solids is necessary knowing it wound't be the same a high end machine.

Well again the KM 6120 is a black and white machine.

In color that's probably getting a little up there for what I would call light production...I'm not sure you would find some of the equipment in this category adequate. 40k 12x18 = approximately 80k (since spec duty cycles are measured 8.5x11), unless that's 40k duplex 12x18, in which case that's 160k. Light production machines generally better suited for an office type environment printing out presentations, or other non-critical stuff. I don't think they're great for a lot of print for pay applications.


For tight registration as well as for decent performance on 110# cover, you may run into issues. I would take a lot of your own paper and files and test heavily to make sure any machine you look at meets your expectations...but the low end machines will struggle...in registration, quality, and speed (slow down for heavy paper weights).

 

[studioindustria]

You are correct I mane the 2060 for the color light production printer. my monthly usuage is based on letter 1-side so I'm counting a duplex 12" x 18" as 4 pages. I will take your suggestion and make a heavy test. I'll print 50 or more sheets with crop marks, 100# cover, color 2-sides to see how the color look sheet after sheet, I'll trim through the crop-marks on all sides so I can immediately see how registration is doing, sheet to sheet, "fish tailing" etc. Thanks for the suggestions. very helpful

 

[BobRym]

As far as the Ricoh goes - you should step up into the Pro7100 series - the volumes and the weight of stock you are planning to run would not be light production in my mind especially with your need for precise registration and heavy solids. We run a 7100 and have been very happy with it in all respects. I would make a note however that duplexing 12x18 or 13x19 on heavier stocks with heavy solids on both sides is asking a lot and does slow down the run. We would run one side and then flip the stock and run the other to avoid jams and speed the run up.

 

[AC Prepress]

Konica Minolta has a unit called the Intelligent Quality Optimizer which checks and adjusts for color and front to back registration on every sheet. The IQ unit was designed for KM's AccurioPress line. We have one at our shop and love it.

https://kmbs.konicaminolta.us/kmbs/...al-press/iq-501-intelligent-quality-optimizer

 

[studioindustria]

thank you Bob and AC. I do realize that I am asking a lot of a light production press. I am in the early stages of evaluation. The sales reps are easy to claim that the small press can do it all. I realize otherwise. I learned a lot in the past week and now have better and more detailed questions for the sales and tech teams. Im am current t that state where you lean a little and realize that you know nothing. I received a demo pn the Konica Minolta C3070 and was surprised to lear that the same professional paper feed and finishing units that are available on the big presses are available on the small ones as well. I’m not sure if our budget allows us to go up to a machine in the class of the Ricoh 7200

 

[kslight]

thank you Bob and AC. I do realize that I am asking a lot of a light production press. I am in the early stages of evaluation. The sales reps are easy to claim that the small press can do it all. I realize otherwise. I learned a lot in the past week and now have better and more detailed questions for the sales and tech teams. Im am current t that state where you lean a little and realize that you know nothing. I received a demo pn the Konica Minolta C3070 and was surprised to lear that the same professional paper feed and finishing units that are available on the big presses are available on the small ones as well. I’m not sure if our budget allows us to go up to a machine in the class of the Ricoh 7200

Yes my understanding is that the 3070 shares some of the lineage of the 6100, though I haven't demo'ed a 3070 specifically, I have ran a lot of tests on a 6100 and it is pretty nice. I believe the trade-off to the 3070 is maximum paper weights and slow downs for heavier papers. The 3070 is probably the range of machine you should be looking at.

I would expect the Ricoh 7200 to be a roughly competitive machine to the 3070, though faster and 5 color capable (though whether that is useful is up to you). I am demoing a 7210 tomorrow.

 

[Possumgal]

You're right to be skeptical about sales reps. Some of them promise you the moon to get the sale. I concur with others' assessment of a light production printer. I've run three models of heavier production printers and even they have registration problems on duplex. Have to do a lot of tinkering to get it lined up. I realize money is an issue, but I think you'll be disappointed if you try to stay with the lighter models.

 

[Shaare]

Sure, all of the vendors today will give you great image quality. Ricoh has bells and whistles with neon pink and what not, KM has a rather dubious inline IQ system (get the details and it turns out to be much less enchanting and more demanding than it youtubes itself), and Xerox has their 10bit engine, which incidentally is great and benefits ALL your jobs.

Ask yourself where most of your business is.
Will being able to print white or neon pink greatly increase your business in real life? Or getting less service calls and more uptime and great quality on every print be getting you more business in real life?

• You'll want to know how they guarantee their service level agreements:
• how long for a tech to be onsite.
• Also, where are the parts stored -> means more delays...
• Ask to speak to current owners for their experience and dig up your own owners so they're not shills.
• Get Xerox to show you a Versant 180 or 3100 and go through the above list too.
  • The thing with Xerox is that usually their reliability is unmatched especially when you put the pedal to the metal, and that means less service call, better training and lower overall cost.

Now, I used to work for Transcontinental and we had all top of the line digital printers vendors and Xerox was always the most reliable and far better TCO overall. Better long term satisfaction than a sweet cheap price that last until the service calls starts repeating themselves! We were never wowed by a quote that looked cheaper than the xerox because we knew down the line having 10-30% more uptime compared to the competition over five years meant real money, tangible money you can count on. Neon pink? Oh sure, that's cool hahaha

Good luck and do serious research!!!

 

[kslight]

Sure, all of the vendors today will give you great image quality. Ricoh has bells and whistles with neon pink and what not, KM has a rather dubious inline IQ system (get the details and it turns out to be much less enchanting and more demanding than it youtubes itself), and Xerox has their 10bit engine, which incidentally is great and benefits ALL your jobs.

Ask yourself where most of your business is.
Will being able to print white or neon pink greatly increase your business in real life? Or getting less service calls and more uptime and great quality on every print be getting you more business in real life?

• You'll want to know how they guarantee their service level agreements:
• how long for a tech to be onsite.
• Also, where are the parts stored -> means more delays...
• Ask to speak to current owners for their experience and dig up your own owners so they're not shills.
• Get Xerox to show you a Versant 180 or 3100 and go through the above list too.
  • The thing with Xerox is that usually their reliability is unmatched especially when you put the pedal to the metal, and that means less service call, better training and lower overall cost.

Now, I used to work for Transcontinental and we had all top of the line digital printers vendors and Xerox was always the most reliable and far better TCO overall. Better long term satisfaction than a sweet cheap price that last until the service calls starts repeating themselves! We were never wowed by a quote that looked cheaper than the xerox because we knew down the line having 10-30% more uptime compared to the competition over five years meant real money, tangible money you can count on. Neon pink? Oh sure, that's cool hahaha

Good luck and do serious research!!!

As a multi-decade Xerox customer, the above used to be true.

1. Xerox offers a "total satisfaction guarantee" in their service agreements for lemon machines...good luck getting them to honor it. We are down that rabbit hole with them now...they will not replace a machine that's 2 years into its lease, UNLESS we buy two more machines. What a deal!

2. Xerox does not guarantee quick service turnarounds - we used to get 4 hours now lucky to get same day, not uncommon to get 2 day responses...and that doesn't mean they'll fix it the first time. Every Xerox competitor I have talked to guarantees 4 hours or less. Fewer and fewer technicians every day, our local Xerox team lost 4 people in October to retirement (which they should have been able to plan for, all of the techs are getting up there in age). The previous year they laid off 6. They have been through several service managers....now we don't have a local one! We also no longer have a local specialist! Last summer waited 2 weeks for an out of town specialist...he came in for about an hour, cleaned a mirror, left...then we called the machine right back in. Awesome! Both of our black and white machines were down for 2 weeks last August...no techs available, ordering wrong parts, etc...great work guys!

3. Xerox no longer has a local parts drop in our area. If they need parts there's at least another day.

4. Current Xerox customers seem pretty vocally unhappy with the current situation.

5. Xerox doesn't have local demo rooms anymore, its a hassle to see a machine first hand. They don't have local sales people either, so if you want to buy something you have to deal with someone in another country. Don't get me started on the Guatemala billing department when they biff your bill.

6. Xerox techs are here so much several people have asked if they work here.


I agree though, don't buy a machine for 5th color unless you have customers asking for it.

 

[AP90]

As a multi-decade Xerox customer, the above used to be true.

1. Xerox offers a "total satisfaction guarantee" in their service agreements for lemon machines...good luck getting them to honor it. We are down that rabbit hole with them now...they will not replace a machine that's 2 years into its lease, UNLESS we buy two more machines. What a deal!

2. Xerox does not guarantee quick service turnarounds - we used to get 4 hours now lucky to get same day, not uncommon to get 2 day responses...and that doesn't mean they'll fix it the first time. Every Xerox competitor I have talked to guarantees 4 hours or less. Fewer and fewer technicians every day, our local Xerox team lost 4 people in October to retirement (which they should have been able to plan for, all of the techs are getting up there in age). The previous year they laid off 6. They have been through several service managers....now we don't have a local one! We also no longer have a local specialist! Last summer waited 2 weeks for an out of town specialist...he came in for about an hour, cleaned a mirror, left...then we called the machine right back in. Awesome! Both of our black and white machines were down for 2 weeks last August...no techs available, ordering wrong parts, etc...great work guys!

3. Xerox no longer has a local parts drop in our area. If they need parts there's at least another day.

4. Current Xerox customers seem pretty vocally unhappy with the current situation.

5. Xerox doesn't have local demo rooms anymore, its a hassle to see a machine first hand. They don't have local sales people either, so if you want to buy something you have to deal with someone in another country. Don't get me started on the Guatemala billing department when they biff your bill.

6. Xerox techs are here so much several people have asked if they work here.


I agree though, don't buy a machine for 5th color unless you have customers asking for it.

We’ve been with Xerox for 4 years now and have the exact opposite results on all your comments. We’ve used the TSG 2 times. 0 hassle doing so. Techs are usually there same day. If they’re not going to make it there the same day, they overnight any parts related to the problems so if it’s not in our parts cabinet they have it. We’re current customers and are very happy. Techs aren’t here very often at all. Best part, I call my local sales guy anytime I’m unhappy and I know he’s going to take care of the problem.

 

[OffsetStorefront]

Sounds like if you want to buy Xerox, you need to find people in your area who also use Xerox to see what service is like in your region. The above responses paint 2 very different pictures and I doubt either are lying.

 

[kslight]

We’ve been with Xerox for 4 years now and have the exact opposite results on all your comments. We’ve used the TSG 2 times. 0 hassle doing so. Techs are usually there same day. If they’re not going to make it there the same day, they overnight any parts related to the problems so if it’s not in our parts cabinet they have it. We’re current customers and are very happy. Techs aren’t here very often at all. Best part, I call my local sales guy anytime I’m unhappy and I know he’s going to take care of the problem.

We have been with Xerox as long as we have been doing business, 25+ years. I personally have been here over 12 of those years, and dealt with Xerox locally a few years before that as well. Xerox at one time was top of everything. Not anymore. As long as I have been here we have never even entertained the idea of KM/Ricoh/etc...until recently.

We used to have a local guy that was great for us. He got a different job at Xerox (selling inkjets), so he can't and doesn't help us anymore. We have begged his boss to let us work with him, or to assign us a local Xerox sales person in general. We have been outsourced to a third party that is out of state for all sales....they are a joke. We aren't in a small metro area, so that kind of thing doesn't even make a lot of sense to me. I would get it if we were somewhere rural or an island, but we are not. If we need local support beyond the technicians fuggedaboutit. Service managers are out of state and a constantly revolving door. And like I said...when it comes to the TSG, they are a brick wall. I'm sorry but it rubs us the wrong way if Xerox's idea of a bargaining tool is to hold the contracted TSG to us purchasing new devices (we are due for new black and white, I get it, but we still pay them a small fortune every month to service our existing equipment..if they didn't like that they should just EOL the machines and be done with us). If they can't give us the service we pay for on our color devices, they will not get our black and white devices. What would you do in our scenario, continue to reward Xerox with your business? I didn't think so.

 

[studioindustria]

Thanks All. All the posts have been very helpful during the decision time. We wound up installing the Konica Minolta Accurio. I like the fact that I can use the high end paper feed and finishing using even on their entry print engine. I'm happy with the cost. So far the machine has been brilliant. It exceed what I expected from an entry level or light production model. So far I have been able to handle every job even 350gsm with heavy coverage. Still learning the finer details but I'm happy with the KM.

 

[PrintIsMyJam]

thank you Bob and AC. I do realize that I am asking a lot of a light production press. I am in the early stages of evaluation. The sales reps are easy to claim that the small press can do it all. I realize otherwise. I learned a lot in the past week and now have better and more detailed questions for the sales and tech teams. Im am current t that state where you lean a little and realize that you know nothing. I received a demo pn the Konica Minolta C3070 and was surprised to lear that the same professional paper feed and finishing units that are available on the big presses are available on the small ones as well. I’m not sure if our budget allows us to go up to a machine in the class of the Ricoh 7200

I would say, look at the Ricoh 5200. I was so surprised by the quality and it would definitely handle your volume. I'm around the same. It was what I was set to purchase, but Canon is releasing a new imagepress line C910 series. So we're now waiting to test the C71 version at the end of the month.