Lotem and Trillian plates paper

[margadri]

Paper between Trillian plates doesn't gets carried together with the plate and doesn't get discarted, jamming the plates before getting into the drum (see previous thread in PrintPlanet)
http://printplanet.com/forums/kodak-systems/26224-lotem-800-trillian
Kodak changed everything without any results.
Now the problem is on all A1 plates 1030x800 1130x900
Kodak changed registry values, tweezers and even grounded the machine.
Kodak then blamed the paper between plates being upside down (waxy side up instead of down)
3000 plates later the paper is still the same side as always been
Kodak then made us install a humidifier to keep humidity at 45>50% and $5000AUD later the problem worsened instead of improving.
Never had problems before.
We are forced to babysit the Lotem taking the sheets of paper manually.
I don't think this is very productive, is it?
Does any of you has ever had this problem?
Kodak seems having no clue on what to do next and we are getting very frustrated
Thank you in advance

 

[PACH]

Paper between Trillian plates doesn't gets carried together with the plate and doesn't get discarted, jamming the plates before getting into the drum (see previous thread in PrintPlanet)
http://printplanet.com/forums/kodak-systems/26224-lotem-800-trillian
Kodak changed everything without any results.
Now the problem is on all A1 plates 1030x800 1130x900
Kodak changed registry values, tweezers and even grounded the machine.
Kodak then blamed the paper between plates being upside down (waxy side up instead of down)
3000 plates later the paper is still the same side as always been
Kodak then made us install a humidifier to keep humidity at 45>50% and $5000AUD later the problem worsened instead of improving.
Never had problems before.
We are forced to babysit the Lotem taking the sheets of paper manually.
I don't think this is very productive, is it?
Does any of you has ever had this problem?
Kodak seems having no clue on what to do next and we are getting very frustrated
Thank you in advance

"Paper between Trillian plates doesn't gets carried together with the plate and doesn't get discarted,"
Did you mean that the paper sticks to the underside of the plate and is carried towards the drum?
The correct humidity is very important in the room(50-60%)
I presume there is plenty and strong air is beeing blown into the cassette when the plate is lifted
Also when the plate is lifted it is bent backwards at least 3 times.
It looks to me like too much statick is put into the paper during manufacturing.

 

[margadri]

"Paper between Trillian plates doesn't gets carried together with the plate and doesn't get discarted,"
Did you mean that the paper sticks to the underside of the plate and is carried towards the drum?
The correct humidity is very important in the room(50-60%)
I presume there is plenty and strong air is beeing blown into the cassette when the plate is lifted
Also when the plate is lifted it is bent backwards at least 3 times.
It looks to me like too much statick is put into the paper during manufacturing.

Thank you for replying
Sorry I wasn't clear enough.
Static has been checked and copper wires have been used to ground the plates.
Also there is plenty of air flow
Humidity was the main concern but we installed a humidifier and humidity is now 50%
Any more and we melt down. In Australia it gets pretty hot in summer and the humidifier blows an awful lot of steam out.

 

[Joe]

Not seeing it here but we don't have a Lotem. We do have an autoloader that picks up the plate but the paper stays on top of the next plate and does not stick to the bottom of the plate being taken out. Our plates are manufactured in the USA I think while I assume yours are from China. I wonder if they use a different kind of paper than what are used for our plates.

 

[PACH]

Thank you for replying
Sorry I wasn't clear enough.
Static has been checked and copper wires have been used to ground the plates.
Also there is plenty of air flow
Humidity was the main concern but we installed a humidifier and humidity is now 50%
Any more and we melt down. In Australia it gets pretty hot in summer and the humidifier blows an awful lot of steam out.

When you open a pack of plates, take out the top one and try and lift the paper up. If it sticks to the plate it is definitely the static in the paper.
Take the cassette out and lift the cover and push it back again. Load a plate from the Loading System to Punches and watch what happens . As I said before watch if the plate is bent back wards about 3 times and the air is blown underneath. I presume at this stage the paper is taken with the plate. Do you keep your plates in the same room as the Lotem?
If you do not get anywhere I am afraid that you will have to try different plates.

 

[margadri]

When you open a pack of plates, take out the top one and try and lift the paper up. If it sticks to the plate it is definitely the static in the paper.
Take the cassette out and lift the cover and push it back again. Load a plate from the Loading System to Punches and watch what happens . As I said before watch if the plate is bent back wards about 3 times and the air is blown underneath. I presume at this stage the paper is taken with the plate. Do you keep your plates in the same room as the Lotem?
If you do not get anywhere I am afraid that you will have to try different plates.

Yes we keep the plates where the Lotem is.
We have the lid of the tray open since we had to hold the paper down and remove it manually.
Kodak techs don't see anything wrong during the loading.
Hi Joe. Good to hear from you.
The plates are coming from China

 

[RickLee]

we had a similar problem when the machine was first installed. It was a used machine but in very good condition.

The slip sheets would either not get picked up or would not fully go down the chute. The pinch nip pads were finally replaced and adjusted. These pads are on the fingers that pick up the sheet and carry it to the rollers.

before the replacement kodak did numerous things with cleaning and adjustment. We got the same comment about the wax on the sheet.

we no longer have this issue.

 

[PACH]

we had a similar problem when the machine was first installed. It was a used machine but in very good condition.

The slip sheets would either not get picked up or would not fully go down the chute. The pinch nip pads were finally replaced and adjusted. These pads are on the fingers that pick up the sheet and carry it to the rollers.

before the replacement kodak did numerous things with cleaning and adjustment. We got the same comment about the wax on the sheet.

we no longer have this issue.

The problem Down Under is paper sticking to the plate, and not that it is not being picked up, so it is not a twizzers problem.

 

[RickLee]

so let me get this straight. the tweezer did not pick up the paper and move it to the chute. The paper continued to with the plate and went on to the drum. and you think that this is not a tweezer problem???

I do wonder about the people on this forum. I have tried to helps several times and the attitude that everyone has is incredulous.

I think I will just read about everyones problems from now on.

 

[PACH]

so let me get this straight. the tweezer did not pick up the paper and move it to the chute. The paper continued to with the plate and went on to the drum. and you think that this is not a tweezer problem???

I do wonder about the people on this forum. I have tried to helps several times and the attitude that everyone has is incredulous.

I think I will just read about everyones problems from now on.

RickLee, read the original posting and then you can do some "wondering"!

Paper between Trillian plates gets carried together with the plate and doesn't get discarted, jamming the plates before getting into the drum (see previous thread in PrintPlanet)
Lotem 800 and Trillian
Kodak changed everything without any results.
Now the problem is on all A1 plates 1030x800 1130x900
Kodak changed registry values, tweezers and even grounded the machine.
Kodak then blamed the paper between plates being upside down (waxy side up instead of down)
3000 plates later the paper is still the same side as always been
Kodak then made us install a humidifier to keep humidity at 45>50% and $5000AUD later the problem worsened instead of improving.
Never had problems before.
We are forced to babysit the Lotem taking the sheets of paper manually.
I don't think this is very productive, is it?
Does any of you has ever had this problem?
Kodak seems having no clue on what to do next and we are getting very frustrated
Thank you in advance

 

[RickLee]

I did read the post.

The problem is the paper not being removed before the plate enters the drum causing it to jam.

firstly our system checks to see if the paper has been picked up. secondly the tech reps tried 3 time to adjust the pad heights. each time the did their adjustment they then cleaned the pads. The machine worked for a few days before jamming again.

The pads were finally replaced and the problem went away.

you are telling me that the humidity is good. therefore static is not a problem

The test for the paper waxy side is easy to confirm if you turn the slip sheet around for a few plates then load them in to the system again. I think you will find that this does not solve you problem.

Kodak does not communicate very well with other people. You are always the only instance of a problem. We have had that line on several issues.

I still recommend that you replace the pads on you Lotem.

I can understand you frustration. I get that way with Kodak also. But if you do not wish to take son=me friendly advise and just cast it off with a wave of a key stroke then that is fine.

I am surprised that Kevin has not chimed in on this. or any other Kodak reps. but that just my Wondering.

 

[PACH]

I did read the post.

The problem is the paper not being removed before the plate enters the drum causing it to jam.

firstly our system checks to see if the paper has been picked up. secondly the tech reps tried 3 time to adjust the pad heights. each time the did their adjustment they then cleaned the pads. The machine worked for a few days before jamming again.

The pads were finally replaced and the problem went away.

you are telling me that the humidity is good. therefore static is not a problem

The test for the paper waxy side is easy to confirm if you turn the slip sheet around for a few plates then load them in to the system again. I think you will find that this does not solve you problem.

Kodak does not communicate very well with other people. You are always the only instance of a problem. We have had that line on several issues.

I still recommend that you replace the pads on you Lotem.

I can understand you frustration. I get that way with Kodak also. But if you do not wish to take son=me friendly advise and just cast it off with a wave of a key stroke then that is fine.

I am surprised that Kevin has not chimed in on this. or any other Kodak reps. but that just my Wondering.

RickLee.
The way I see the problem is that if you load a plate ( no paper on top of it), the plate is lifted by the X/Y and moved towards the Drum , but the paper underneath the plate goes with it. So I do not think that the problem in this instance is the tweezers not picking up the paper.
Certainly, in many instances different paper types and tweezer issues gave similar problems to yours. New tweezers were introduced but a few registry values had to be changed to cope with this.

 

[RickLee]

the assumption that the paper is sticking to the bottom of the plates would be different. however that is not what I am reading. How would they babysit the machine and take the sheets out manually if it was the sheet under the plate in question. that would require them to know when the machine is going to jam and then remove the sheets from underneath. I do not believe this is the case.

 

[PACH]

the assumption that the paper is sticking to the bottom of the plates would be different. however that is not what I am reading. How would they babysit the machine and take the sheets out manually if it was the sheet under the plate in question. that would require them to know when the machine is going to jam and then remove the sheets from underneath. I do not believe this is the case.

This is what Margadri wrote:

Yes we keep the plates where the Lotem is.
We have the lid of the tray open since we had to hold the paper down and remove it manually.Kodak techs don't see anything wrong during the loading.

 

[margadri]

The test for the paper waxy side is easy to confirm if you turn the slip sheet around for a few plates then load them in to the system again. I think you will find that this does not solve you problem.

This is a good idea. I wonder why we didn't think to do it before.Thank you RickeLee and thank you PACH.

 

[margadri]

As the story goes on, we received new plates from a new batch (has been 6 months since we began having problems) from Kodak with the paper the "correct side up".
100 plates later no jam yet.

I am surprised that Kevin has not chimed in on this. or any other Kodak reps. but that just my Wondering.

RickLee wonder no more

Why didn't Kodak replace the plates at the beginning if, I think, they knew all along the problem?
Did they have to get rid of lots of wrongly packed plates before?
Kodak, is an amazing place.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

As the story goes on, we received new plates from a new batch (has been 6 months since we began having problems) from Kodak with the paper the "correct side up".
100 plates later no jam yet.



RickLee wonder no more

Why didn't Kodak replace the plates at the beginning if, I think, they knew all along the problem?
Did they have to get rid of lots of wrongly packed plates before?
Kodak, is an amazing place.

Actually, I'm surprised I haven't chimed in yet either! Sorry I must have missed seeing it, despite the recurring replies.

Firstly, I'm glad the problem seems to be resolved with the paper being the other way around. Keep me in the loop if that's not the case.

Not as an excuse, but here's a bit of info about interleaf paper (hopefully without giving away too many trade secrets!). Interleaf paper itself can be an integral part of the performance and manufacturing process of the plate. You may notice that we often use a different type of paper for each plate type - that's not by chance. The qualities of the paper can be critical. Getting the paper to "stick" to the plates just enough, but not too much, so that autoloaders can remove the paper is a very tricky process - it's a balance between paper type, static levels, and surface characteristics of both the paper and the plate coating itself. The paper we use is often custom-made for us to have the right properties.

When you consider that we also have to ensure that a plate works with many, many types of CTP systems on the market - each with different capabilities and requirements - it can be a difficult process. Changing the direction the paper is applied is not an "error", but it may be done because it results in better performance with a wider range of CTP systems (and possibly causes problems with others).

So - it's not an easy process, and I apologize that it took so long to resolve the problems at your site.

Kevin.

 

[margadri]

Thank you Kevin
Appreciate.
I understand almost everything.
The only thing I don't understand is why Kodak blamed everything else, making us waste money and time, when the problem (and solution) was well known!
We never had problems with the Gold series.
Trillian went OK for almost an year before starting to give us grief.
Anyway thank you for your reply.

 

[PACH]

Thank you Kevin
Appreciate.
I understand almost everything.
The only thing I don't understand is why Kodak blamed everything else, making us waste money and time, when the problem (and solution) was well known!
We never had problems with the Gold series.
Trillian went OK for almost an year before starting to give us grief.
Anyway thank you for your reply.

Good to hear that you are back in business and not fighting with the paper. I am fairly sure that the Kodak guys did not know about the problem but it is a shame that they did not think about a solution.
Keep up the good work!!!

 

[KevinC@EFI]

Thank you Kevin
Appreciate.
I understand almost everything.
The only thing I don't understand is why Kodak blamed everything else, making us waste money and time, when the problem (and solution) was well known!
We never had problems with the Gold series.
Trillian went OK for almost an year before starting to give us grief.
Anyway thank you for your reply.

While I'm confident that the team was doing all they could, I'll follow up with them offline to try to get a clearer picture of the details.

Kevin.