My head hurts...

[Alith7]

I just have to vent a bit...
I have a very VERY picky customer that sends me some of the most complicated and particular printing projects I have to process, but they pay for it gladly. They have a whole line of marketing that is flood super black with spot gloss/dull varnish contrast to make a ghosting look. They also spot gloss photos for accent on the inside. One of these photos is a very complicated splash piece on a black background that the splash only is spot gloss. It looks awesome actually, and I love that we can produce fun stuff like this.
--->I have to add...we do this full varnish instead of varnish/Aqueous because it has a better matte effect. So these jobs take days and multiple set-ups to produce as the varnish has to be applied in a second pass to dry-trap over the 4-color to get the best contrast int he varnish.

This customer has a few sales offices around the world, and is going to be sending the piece over seas to be produced. Because of the complexity of this piece, and that my customer is requesting that I have the files prepped so the other printer can produce it accurately, I passed this question down the line:
"I need to know how the printer will process the trap on this. Does their RIP auto trap? And can it auto trap an image to a solid?"

And the response I received back up the chain from the end designer:
"I am not sure that I understand this technique! I have spoken with my printer and they don’t really understand it either!!"

I'm just....I really don't have words.
Aside from that..I just realized that the reversed out white text has to manually trapped out of the super black so it doesn't halo...and they are making text changes before printing from my files....

Thank you for listening...

 

[abc]

Has reprint written all over it!

 

[Alith7]

My direct customer is actually hoping that it becomes such a mess dealing with the other printer that they just have us print it and ship it over. It's only ever for a couple hundred pieces.

 

[wildcatt]

It still amazes me how so many companies can have staff that is not up to speed with some of the more complicated (now) techniques. In the "olden days" stuff like this was not a problem. It seems now - that companies only want (or know how) to run process ink and flood coatings. Manual anythings seems to be dying.
Good luck - you need to find an "old school" tech who knows what your talking about.

 

[Alith7]

It still amazes me how so many companies can have staff that is not up to speed with some of the more complicated (now) techniques. In the "olden days" stuff like this was not a problem. It seems now - that companies only want (or know how) to run process ink and flood coatings. Manual anythings seems to be dying.
Good luck - you need to find an "old school" tech who knows what your talking about.

I think almost more than that, I need a tech that actually understands what their software is doing and how/why it works. Not some kid with a "Multi-Media Degree" that just does what they are told to do, with the processes set up by the installers. UG!

 

[bky]

I usually don't have an issue with trapping varnishes. Even if you accidentally trapped a gloss to a dull varnish...well, they are transparent and pretty forgiving. Sounds like you've got flood gloss varnish (overprint everything) and spot dull varnish (again, set to overprint). The file should be simple to follow.

You can force your own trap on white type reversed out of 4c black by manually putting in a 0.1 pt, 100%K, outside stroke on the type. Note: use InDesign's OUTSIDE stroke only! if you are concerned, you can prevent any trapping system from overprinting this and killing your keep-away halo by making the color of the stroke 1C/1M/1Y/100K. That defeats the trapping system because now there is common color between the 4C rich black background and the type. Nobody will see the 1% CMY dots in the stroke, so any mis-registration still won't be visible.

 

[Alith7]

thank you bky, I am aware of those features.
my concern is sending this job to a print shop that doesn't even understand what I am asking.

And while you technically can do a flood gloss and overprint spot dull, it is the same as wet trapping the varnish, and tends to flatten out the dull. For this customer we HAVE to have the dull and gloss trapped, and we have to run in a second pass once 4-color is dry. They specifically want the the super high contrast of doing it this way. the one time we tried the flood gloss method, they kicked the job and we had to reprint it. Also, if you trap the wrong way on dull/gloss you will notice it. Especially if you are spot hitting fine detail. If you spread the dull into the gloss you will effectively shrink the gloss area in some cases making it disappear.

 

[Alith7]

in case anyone wants a good Monday laugh...

The latest coming back down the pipe:

"From what I understand they don’t apply RIP’s..."

At this point, I think I'm going to prep the files and send them on down the line and wash my hands of it.

 

[esmith214]

Depending on where in the world they're sending files, they may mean "they don't apply traps". Unlike in the US, many jobs are not trapped at all, especially the lower price ones. By your description, it should look awesome when it's done

 

[Alith7]

Depending on where in the world they're sending files, they may mean "they don't apply traps". Unlike in the US, many jobs are not trapped at all, especially the lower price ones. By your description, it should look awesome when it's done

Thank you! It's actually a beautiful piece! I'll see if I can get a picture of it... It's a big photo of paint splashes on a super black background, with gradiated spot gloss to give it a round look on the splashes.

It's going to Europe somewhere... I know a number of the guys on here are from across the puddle, and from talking with them, this shouldn't be concepts beyond their understanding. But I guess, like everywhere else, there are people who really know what they are doing, and people who are clueless! We tried getting them to let us print the piece and ship it. The customer seems to think it would be too expensive, and is insisting they have to print it over there. Ah well. Sent the files on down yesterday, I'm sure in a week or two, I'll be getting the updated files and we'll be printing and shipping.

 

[minch]

Hello Alith7,
I am in the UK, but also have to send things to Europe and the reason is cost. You can get things printed in Poland for a fraction of the cost in the UK and turnaround is fast due to good transport links.

The downside is the language barrier. I have received responses similar to the: they don't use RIPs; answer you had. Both the question and the answer got lost in translation.

The only solution is to have a native of the country where the printing is being done who is versed in all aspects of print. Boy are these rare.

Its hard enough finding our own natives who are versed in print let alone another countries natives.

 

[Bill W]

Just curious why you feel you need to make sure the next printer has print ready files. I realize there is some political gain in playing nice with customers that take some of the work you printed for them to another printer. But is it your responsibility to do anymore than send the original file you received?

My experience in the label printing world is that we are lucky to get any art that a customer has decided to move from another printer to us. Our policy is to only send original art we received to the next printer. Trapping and customizing to match what we printed is now in the new printer's hands.

How do others handle the situation that started this thread?

 

[Alith7]

Minch~
I'm not sure where the communication failure is, but this is going through at LEAST 4 different people before getting to the end printer. It's quite a mess.

Bill~
Normally I would agree with you, but here is the catch. MY customer is the design agency for a huge corporation. He is responsible for maintaining his customer's brand integrity, and they have very demanding quality standards. HIS customer recently started some new sales in Europe somewhere, and the sales rep wants assorted brochures, only in EU size standards, and with text more appropriate than for US sales. They are having it printed over there, and this sales rep is handling things. This is a very complex piece that I worked with the designer on extensively to makes sure it printed correctly. I have the final "good" files. So he is asking me to make sure everything is good to send over, as he is still the one responsible for maintaining the brand integrity, and that includes press appropriate files.
So, the chain ends up like this:

My Shop --> My Customer (design house) --> His Customer (Big Corp) --> Sales rep for corp --> ?? I have no idea how many more people --> some printer in EU

so far, it has literally taken DAYS to get a single question answered.


But, for pretty much ANY other customer...I throw the files on a disk and let them sort it out. Not my problem.

 

[Alith7]

for whoever asked about what the piece looks like, I can't show you the whole piece, and I unfortunately don't have a printed one to photograph the varnish, but I have a screen shot of part of one of the photos.
This photo is spot gloss on the colored splash. All the way down to the little dots. It was quite interesting getting the photo to first have an even superblack background to blend in with the rest of the piece so that only the splash stood out, and then to get the curves balanced to give me a spot varnish grayscale TIFF.

http://geprinting.us/images/splash.png

 

[Tpyo]

Hi Alith,

I would think that sending the working files as untrapped and ready for your RIP + some your shop's printed 'go-bys', both untrimmed and finished would be what most other shops would need. The go-bys should explain much of what they would need to know about what is expected.
It sounds as if your customer is very fortunate to land you as his print-provider here in the states; you go the extra mile with a smile!

 

[Alith7]

Hi Alith,

I would think that sending the working files as untrapped and ready for your RIP + some your shop's printed 'go-bys', both untrimmed and finished would be what most other shop would need. The go-bys should explain much of what they would need to know about what is expected.
It sounds as if your customer is very fortunate to land you as his print-provider here in the states; you go the extra mile with a smile!

Thank you! I do love the challenging jobs. But, to be honest, this customer also pays for all this extra work. and they do it gladly. so it goes both ways.