Need loads of advice :)

[odotsok]

We're a small graphic design firm continually getting frustrated with the local printer companies (for both quality and efficiency) and are looking to take things into our own hands and invest in some printers that would help us get started.

We've been doing a lot of research online and looking at different printers which are available but there are so many choices that its driving us nuts! Hopefully you guys can lend us some of your experience and help us nail down the devices that will best suit our needs.

From my understanding we require 2 different printers. One for larger format printing (in lower volume) and one or smaller format printing (in higher volume). Which, from my research means we're looking at one wide-format Inkjet printer (44" would suffice for our needs) and one colour laser (A3) for the high volume jobs.

The wide-format printer would be mainly used for making big banners, and A2+ posters and must provide good colour accuracy.

Whereas, the colour laser printer would be used mainly for high volume prints such as flyers, business cards, A4/A3 posters, and brochures. Perhaps my "high volume" is not really considered high volume in the industry but I'm talking roughly 50,000 sheets per month. This printer would also have to handle different weights of paper so that it would do business cards well.

Based on my research I have identified 2 devices which I feel suit our needs. They are:

1) CANON imagePROGRAF iPF8100 (for the wide-format)

2) KYOCERA MITA FS-C8100DN (for the high volume)

I would appreciate it if you guys could lend your expertise and give me your thoughts on my choice of printers and enlighten me to any mistakes I might have made in my research and decision making!

I am also curious what you think we would need in terms of accessories to cover most common printing jobs. Any extras for the printers? Document finishers? Paper types? Cutters? What would you suggest for someone trying to start out?

Any advice would be massively helpful to us and much appreciated!

Thanks for your time

 

[hansman]

I can not comment on the smalll format printer
however on the large format printer I would assume you are going to use the printer in a office enviroment you should probably look in low voc inks or ECO Solvent such as a Roland 540.
We have one in our shop it is an excellent choice.
http://www.rolanddga.com/products/printers/xj740/

 

[lfelton]

I hear the Canon WF machines are pretty good, maybe post on the WF forum and get some feedback there.

The Kyocera is an office machine and not suitable for producing commercial work, I'd look elsewhere.

In general, if you're a graphic design firm and want to stick at that then just find a better commerical printer. We print for about a million and one graphic designers / brokers / quick printers etc. and they are our life blood and we treat them well. Of course, there are some that are a complete PITA and we can't be doing with that so we politely ask them to take their business elsewhere. Go see their factory, speak to a senior member of staff, check their trade association status and quality standards accreditation. You can figure out in a very short period of time whether they are going to be worth partnering with. It's a two way street though. If you provide nice clean press ready PDFs, are polite and friendly with the staff and don't ask for your chestnuts to be pulled out of the fire more than a couple of times a week, commercial printers will bend over backwards to help you.

On the other hand, it sounds like you'd really like to expand into printing. Good for you, some of our very best commercial printers started out as graphic design outfits. Good luck! And welcome to the world of investing megabucks a year

 

[odotsok]

I hear the Canon WF machines are pretty good, maybe post on the WF forum and get some feedback there.

The Kyocera is an office machine and not suitable for producing commercial work, I'd look elsewhere.

In general, if you're a graphic design firm and want to stick at that then just find a better commerical printer. We print for about a million and one graphic designers / brokers / quick printers etc. and they are our life blood and we treat them well. Of course, there are some that are a complete PITA and we can't be doing with that so we politely ask them to take their business elsewhere. Go see their factory, speak to a senior member of staff, check their trade association status and quality standards accreditation. You can figure out in a very short period of time whether they are going to be worth partnering with. It's a two way street though. If you provide nice clean press ready PDFs, are polite and friendly with the staff and don't ask for your chestnuts to be pulled out of the fire more than a couple of times a week, commercial printers will bend over backwards to help you.

On the other hand, it sounds like you'd really like to expand into printing. Good for you, some of our very best commercial printers started out as graphic design outfits. Good luck! And welcome to the world of investing megabucks a year

Thanks for the reply and yes we ARE really keen to expand into printing. Unfortunately our geographic locations means there are no real commercial printers around. Those that are here only do digital printing, and are quite bad at it. Not to mention that none of them are able to deliver in a timely fashion and it simply reflects badly on our company.

I would be curious to know what you think could replace the Kyocera device that I mentioned above? What would be more suitable for the jobs and volumes I mentioned?

 

[odotsok]

I can not comment on the smalll format printer
however on the large format printer I would assume you are going to use the printer in a office enviroment you should probably look in low voc inks or ECO Solvent such as a Roland 540.
We have one it is an excellent choice.
Advanced Color Solutions > Roland Printer/Cutters > Roland SolJet Pro III XC-540

Thanks for the reply. But judging from the price listed on your website that is waaay over our budget and probably overkill for our needs.

 

[Craig]

Thanks for the reply and yes we ARE really keen to expand into printing. Unfortunately our geographic locations means there are no real commercial printers around. Those that are here only do digital printing, and are quite bad at it. Not to mention that none of them are able to deliver in a timely fashion and it simply reflects badly on our company.

I would be curious to know what you think could replace the Kyocera device that I mentioned above? What would be more suitable for the jobs and volumes I mentioned?

Even at those volumes you need to start at a minimum of KM6501, Xerox 7000 range. Keep in mind that you already stated the digital printers in your area are already quite bad, if you get a business color device you will not be able to differentiate yourself from what is already there. As your volumes grow you will need a machine capable of growing with you, don't just look at your immediate needs, get the crystal ball out.

You will get exactly what you pay for, remember cheap is good, but good is rarely cheap!

 

[tppsg]

Dun forget to invest in a good electric cutter too! You will be printing A3/SRA3 sheets or even 13" X 19" sheets most of time on the small format digital machines.

What type of quality are you looking at for the small format prints? If you are looking at digital printing output quality similar to offset quality, it will cost X times (KM6501) to XX times (Xerox 7000) a Kyocera-Mita.

 

[odotsok]

Dun forget to invest in a good electric cutter too! You will be printing A3/SRA3 sheets or even 13" X 19" sheets most of time on the small format digital machines.

What type of quality are you looking at for the small format prints? If you are looking at digital printing output quality similar to offset quality, it will cost X times (KM6501) to XX times (Xerox 7000) a Kyocera-Mita.

What exactly would the difference be between the Kyocera I mentioned and the KM and Xerox printers you are proposing? Output quality? Color reproduction? Speed? Running cost?

To be honest with you our budget for the laser printer is somewhere around $10,000. Correct me if I'm wrong but that pretty much rules out any digital press' ?

 

[postnetnc133]

What are you truly looking to accomplish? If efficiently is an issue then maybe talk to your current printer. If quality is an issue look at other printers. But if your budget is to get a printer for $10K and want to compete in the printing industry you need to rethink you game plan. Kyocera is more office type equipment. If you are going to compete with other printers you need to have the proper equipment. As for printers Xerox, Canon and KM are popular and mentioned often on this board but something to consider as well just because you have one of the three mentioned doesnt mean it is print production quality. They all make lower grade printers meant for office environments. As for the digital press you dont necessarily need a press to compete. You just need a print production quality printer and need the right equipment for the volume you plan to produce.

 

[Morning Flight]

You will get exactly what you pay for, remember cheap is good, but good is rarely cheap!

Except for Morning Flight. Right, Craig?

odotsok, in addition to a good cutter (for business cards, and cutting A3 to A4), you'll also need an air-feed folder. Those two machines are mandatory, even if you do have access to a trade bindery. If you don't, you'll also need to look at a basic booklet maker. An inexpensive Rosback saddlestitcher, used if necessary, will do.

As Craig said, though, your biggest expense will be an A3 production printer. If you start with office equipment (pretty much anything under $50,000 - and way above your $10,000 budget), your quality will be no better than what you're delivering now. However, depending on how remote your location is and how large a captive market you have, that may still be acceptable to start out with, because doing the work in house will significantly improve your turn-around.

All the best!

Hal Heindel
Morning Flight: Print Estimating Software for Offset and Digital

 

[odotsok]

Except for Morning Flight. Right, Craig?

odotsok, in addition to a good cutter (for business cards, and cutting A3 to A4), you'll also need an air-feed folder. Those two machines are mandatory, even if you do have access to a trade bindery. If you don't, you'll also need to look at a basic booklet maker. An inexpensive Rosback saddlestitcher, used if necessary, will do.

As Craig said, though, your biggest expense will be an A3 production printer. If you start with office equipment (pretty much anything under $50,000 - and way above your $10,000 budget), your quality will be no better than what you're delivering now. However, depending on how remote your location is and how large a captive market you have, that may still be acceptable to start out with, because doing the work in house will significantly improve your turn-around.

All the best!

Hal Heindel
Morning Flight: Print Estimating Software for Offset and Digital

Our location is very very remote. All the local printers are using office equipment. We're not so interested in competing with them (although it wouldn't be hard), but rather we're trying to help our turnaround times as we get a lot of problems with them.

With that being said, and keeping our $10,000 in mind, what would be the machine we could use to get as close to production quality as possible?

 

[tppsg]

What exactly would the difference be between the Kyocera I mentioned and the KM and Xerox printers you are proposing? Output quality? Color reproduction? Speed? Running cost?

To be honest with you our budget for the laser printer is somewhere around $10,000. Correct me if I'm wrong but that pretty much rules out any digital press' ?

There are probably a hundred and one threads in this forum comparing various digital machines. While Kyocera-Mita may be compared directly against, most of the points mentioned in the old threads are the same for all digital machines. To name a few usual suspects, registration, colour consistency, image quality, the range of printable substrates and auto-duplexing of heavyweight media. Unfortunately or rather fortunately for commerical printers, digital printing is much more than simply selecting the print driver and clicking "PRINT".

Why not try running a few hundred sheets of your frequently printed jobs on a few substrates through the Kyocera-Mita? As long as your customers can accept the image quality of the output and you can make money out of printed sheets. I would say go for it! There are printers who can stilll make tons of money out of colour machines producing IQ one generation ago.

But one word of caution though, I am sure it is not the intention of K-M to design the machine for 50,000 printed sheets with high ink/toner coverage a month.

 

[odotsok]

There are probably a hundred and one threads in this forum comparing various digital machines. While Kyocera-Mita may be compared directly against, most of the points mentioned in the old threads are the same for all digital machines. To name a few usual suspects, registration, colour consistency, image quality, the range of printable substrates and auto-duplexing of heavyweight media. Unfortunately or rather fortunately for commerical printers, digital printing is much more than simply selecting the print driver and clicking "PRINT".

Why not try running a few hundred sheets of your frequently printed jobs on a few substrates through the Kyocera-Mita? As long as your customers can accept the image quality of the output and you can make money out of printed sheets. I would say go for it! There are printers who can stilll make tons of money out of colour machines producing IQ one generation ago.

But one word of caution though, I am sure it is not the intention of K-M to design the machine for 50,000 printed sheets with high ink/toner coverage a month.

So would there be a comparable device that is designed for such volumes?

 

[twitch5253]

Thanks for the reply and yes we ARE really keen to expand into printing. Unfortunately our geographic locations means there are no real commercial printers around. Those that are here only do digital printing, and are quite bad at it. Not to mention that none of them are able to deliver in a timely fashion and it simply reflects badly on our company.

I would be curious to know what you think could replace the Kyocera device that I mentioned above? What would be more suitable for the jobs and volumes I mentioned?

Just out of curiosity....... how 'remote' are you? (in miles, or without revealing your actual location.

 

[odotsok]

Just out of curiosity....... how 'remote' are you? (in miles, or without revealing your actual location.

Tiny tropical island in the Indian Ocean. Believe me its very remote and our options are very very limited.

 

[odotsok]

So with our 'circumstances' what would you recommend as a comparable printer that would be best suited for the job? Within the $10,000 budget of course.

 

[odotsok]

What about the Oki C9850 ?

C9850 | Product specifications | A4 A3 Colour Printers & All In One Printer - OKI Printing Solutions

It seems to tick all the boxes from what I can tell. Anyone care to comment on it?

 

[Beergod]

For the $10,000 budget... I would see what Xante' could do for you. Decent quality. Affordable and can even do board stock. Its a digital world so if you arent finding what you need locally then go elsewhere.
Be sure your color management practices are sound before moving on. I have seen many firms blame the printer for the bad output and inconsistencies when in reality it was their own color management policies (or lack of) that were to blame. Garbage in is garbage out. Im not saying this is the case for you ( how would I know) but I do know that this is very common problem. It can also be the other way around. Communication is really the best tool you can have.

 

[odotsok]

For the $10,000 budget... I would see what Xante' could do for you. Decent quality. Affordable and can even do board stock. Its a digital world so if you arent finding what you need locally then go elsewhere.
Be sure your color management practices are sound before moving on. I have seen many firms blame the printer for the bad output and inconsistencies when in reality it was their own color management policies (or lack of) that were to blame. Garbage in is garbage out. Im not saying this is the case for you ( how would I know) but I do know that this is very common problem. It can also be the other way around. Communication is really the best tool you can have.

Unfortunately we're stuck with the printers we have. Like I said our geographic location leaves us no alternatives other than looking internationally. But even that would involve long turnaround times, not to mention shipping costs.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I can see from the specifications the OKI C9850 is a better machine than the Xante other than it only handles 300gms paper (as opposed to the 500gms on the Xante). The paper weight is not such a big problem for us so other than that is there anything else that I'm missing?

 

[ACTJAY]

How is the hunting going? I have been in the wide format industry for years and would be happy to speak about the success of the Canon's. The IPF8100 is a great machine for fine art reproduction and I would highly recommend it. You might also take a look at the IPF8000s, its the same body but runs 8 inks insead of 12... This makes it a bit faster with relitively the the same output quality. If you want the largest color gamut then the 12 color 8100 is the way to go. If you have any questions let me know.

-Jay