new guy asking about KM C451

[Keith]

Hello everyone! I have been devouring this forum the past week and it is awesome! I decided to join so I can ask for some wisdom from the minds on this forum because I love what I've been reading. Anyway, I had seen someone else post that appears to be in a similar situation as myself (I can't remember who it was). I'll be as short as possible: I am essentially a one man shop with a part time employee. We are all digital currently running a Xante Ilumina and a Imagerunner c3220 w/fiery. The Ilumina has gotten to be to expense to operate as well as finicky and the c3220 is lackluster with quality and paper handling (max weight is too low). After researching for the past year I think I have earned a PhD in copier specs! If my shop fails, I think I will make a good technician or salesman! Anyway, I average 10,000 - 15,000 clicks a month. And I need a machine with/capable of the following: Fiery, 300gsm, coated, envelopes, graphics quality, reasonable click charge/acquisition cost, 12x18 (13x19 would be cool but I honestly have never printed a job on that large of a sheet). I have been in business for 2.5 years and I do a lot of postcards with VDP, gloss flyers/brochures, occasionally some linen, and a good bit of invitations with envelopes. I have narrowed my decision down to three (in no particular order): Xerox 242, Konica Minolta c451 (I was given a good deal on that) and an Okidata cx3641 (which I am aware that my Ilumina is built on that engine). In closing, I love the satin look of the oil-less fuser (I know the KM is oil-less and not the Oki; not sure about X). Any feedback is greatly appreciated and I look forward to being a part of this forum!

Keith

 

[PineyBob]

I have a colleague who works for K-M and right now they're having a huge meeting through Thursday. This person will give the no BS truth as to whether the C451 is suitable for print for pay at the volumes you mentioned.

I'm thinking "NO Bleeping Way" based on prior experience with Mid Range K-M Products.

If you can afford a short term lease I'd think about a refurbished KM or IKON version of the 50 page unit. That WILL work and should be worth the extra bucks.

Not a giant fan of the Canon and Xerox offerings at your level. But I'm thinking that the re furb K-M product shouldn't cost a whole lot more then your c3200.

Personally I wouldn't buy an Oki product with your money but that's just me.

 

[UberTech]

I would probably steer away from the c451. For one the specs state the maximum weight is 256GSM. It does feed 300, in fact it will duplex 300 I have seen it many times. But what you get on the sheet is another matter altogether.

The paper is feed 90 degrees from the feed tray so straight in and up. Then within 3-4 inches it is in the transfer roller then another 3-4 inches latter it is in the fuser. So at any one time you have 3 different speeds on one sheet.

So what happens is the transfer belt actually starts to slow down due to the friction between the paper and the transfer roller and all these different speeds. Typically the speed of the fuser is slightly lower to form a loop between the two but because of the stiffness of the card it slows the sheet and the transfer roller.

What difference does this make? If the transfer belt is forced to slow down while developing the image the colour registration will be out so when you do your prints about 2/3 down the page you will get a mis-register, usually magenta.

Take in a test chart with 4 colour text to prove this.

Sometimes I have got around this by changing the speed of the fuser but if the board is really stiff you will have problems.

Some customers live with it and may ditch one line of business cards. You could just do letter size and you won’t see the problem.

I don't think it will print on anything wider than A3+ (311mm)

Aside from this it is a very good, reliable engine

When looking at feeding weights like that you really need to find a machine that has a straight paper path. Not sure if the 242 is like this but it might be the better option here also the c451 is LED rather than laser.

Like PineyBob says I wouldn't even consider an Oki, typically they have generic rebadges that you can by with a xerox, epson or brother badge on the front. Nobody really knows anything about the engine but will happily take your money for the toner.

 

[X33]

you are comparing apples, oranges and bananas.

The Xerox DocuColor 242 can do all you are asking for. It does not use fuser oil.

The KM C451 is an office color device with a Fiery controller. It won't handle the heavy media you need. In the Xerox world it is comparable to the Xerox WorkCentre 7345 with Fiery; which is not what you need for your type of business and applications.

The OKI, I've never seen an OKI in a production color printing environment, but it sounds like an office printer, something like a Xerox Phaser 7750, which again, is probably not what you need.

 

[Keith]

Ricoh C6000?????

Ricoh C6000?????

Thank you everyone for your replies!!! I am wondering about LED vs Laser. The general theme appears that LED is somehow infererior to Laser. Why? My Ilumina is LED and my Imagerunner is Laser; gloss paper from the Ilumina gets a "toning" on it and the Imagerunner does not. Does that have anything to do with LED vs Laser?

I was considering the Ricoh C6000. They gave me a good price on the machine and the click charges were .07 for letter, .14 for ledger and .009 for black. The only thing I didn't like about it was the fact that it is not rated for coated. They printed some samples for me on my coated paper but I'm afraid if I have any problems, they'll say, "It's out of spec". I think I have ruled out the Oki because of the oil in the toner, high click charges and its office environment mentality. I don't know enough about the KM c451 but the general concesus sounds like- "stay away!" I am leaning heavily towards the X242 but it is signifcantly more expensive than everthing else I looked at, except the click charges- .089 for any size and .012 for black. (Even lower if I go with one of their leasing companies). And the Ricoh. I like the quality and the prices and it can handle 300gsm. Not sure about the gloss handling or it's "light production environment" abilities.

Again, thanks.
Keith

 

[sweatyclimber]

Keith based on your reply you are looking at the Xerox through Xerox Direct. I would suggest finding a Global Imaging dealer to negotiate the 242. You'll likely get much better pricing and a service staff who will tell you what will really work and what won't verse show you a sheet of spec's. Having worked for KM in the past, I would say that that model would do *most* of what you want and should be very inexpensive. You could bump up the speed some because your volume would be relatively high for that model.

Also in my experiance with them and the Fiery, there was usually not a noticable difference between the embeded controller and the Fiery. If you go with an "office color" machine, I would make sure that you'll actually use the Fiery features regularly to justafy the additional cost... Otherwise use it w/o the Fiery as a stepping stone to the next level and save your money so you can go gain new business!

As someone said the 242 could handle the work, and you can resolve the pricing issue by not going X-direct. I personally am not a fan of any company who tries to make their compeditive edge price which I find to be the go to market plan of Richo's. As for Oki... I would suggest your moving away from vendor's who really know how to support you and your environment.