Sustainable
Banned
D Ink Man did make us all believe he was about to help in a very big way on this subject and chose to retract his offer. At least give us a reason for the retraction.
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Offset Ink Mileage Test Procedures
- Thread starter D Ink Man
- Start date
A poor farmer one day discovers a glittering golden egg in the nest of his pet goose. At first he thinks it must be some kind of trick. But as he starts to throw the egg aside, he has second thoughts and takes it to an appraiser. The egg is pure gold. The farmer can't believe his good fortune and becomes even more incredulous the following day when he discovers another golden egg. Day after day, upon awakening, he rushes to the nest to find another golden egg. He becomes fabulously wealthy. It all seems too good to be true.
But with his increasing wealth comes greed and impatience. Unable to wait day after day for the golden eggs, the farmer decides to kill the goose and get all the eggs at once. But when he opens the goose, he finds it empty. There are no golden eggs and now there is no way to get any more. The farmer has killed the goose that laid them.
But with his increasing wealth comes greed and impatience. Unable to wait day after day for the golden eggs, the farmer decides to kill the goose and get all the eggs at once. But when he opens the goose, he finds it empty. There are no golden eggs and now there is no way to get any more. The farmer has killed the goose that laid them.
[email protected]
Well-known member
I would have cloned the goose so that I had more geese to lay golden eggs. Plus the geese could all be friends and therefore be happier. A happy goose probably lays more eggs.
Sustainable
Banned
Good Fairy tale. Who is the goose and who is the farmer?
Alois Senefelder
Well-known member
Ink Mileage
Ink Mileage
Gentlemen,
Links to my previous posted PDFs - see Page 3
Regards, Alois http://printplanet.com/forums/ink-substrates-consumables-discussion/22123-ink-quality
Ink Mileage
Gentlemen,
Links to my previous posted PDFs - see Page 3
Regards, Alois http://printplanet.com/forums/ink-substrates-consumables-discussion/22123-ink-quality
Bob Peterson posted this 11-25-2008
The section in brackets is the important part
Regarding the chalking. You are correct in that one type of chalking is caused due to the varnish/vehicle portion diving into the substrate. Therefore, the pigment has no binder and it will scuff / rub off.
(("""" Alcohol sub acts a very agressive ink solvent. Try using it some time to clean up dried ink. Excessive sub will breakdown the viscosity of the ink causing emulsification. This break down in viscosity is due to the molecular structure of the ink vehicle changing physical properties due to the sub. As the physical properties change they begin to loose their litho properties one being pigmnet binding, not to mention set speed, drying, and rub resistance."""""))))
Without pigment binding you have a form of chalking.
This is an ink tech giving technical assistance and also noting how damaging glycols can be towards ink, effecting their total litho properties!!!!!
So ink techs are you going to sit there and say that glycols can effect the inks in all these ways but have zero effect on ink mileage?
Come on please, how daft do you think we are. Is it because you haven't embraced and changed technologies, that you don't want to agree and be telling your clients that the current ink mileage could be significantly better if the fountain solution was altered along with the ink. Simply due to a financial standpoint. (more mileage = bonus for the printer - negative for the ink manufacturer.
The section in brackets is the important part
Regarding the chalking. You are correct in that one type of chalking is caused due to the varnish/vehicle portion diving into the substrate. Therefore, the pigment has no binder and it will scuff / rub off.
(("""" Alcohol sub acts a very agressive ink solvent. Try using it some time to clean up dried ink. Excessive sub will breakdown the viscosity of the ink causing emulsification. This break down in viscosity is due to the molecular structure of the ink vehicle changing physical properties due to the sub. As the physical properties change they begin to loose their litho properties one being pigmnet binding, not to mention set speed, drying, and rub resistance."""""))))
Without pigment binding you have a form of chalking.
This is an ink tech giving technical assistance and also noting how damaging glycols can be towards ink, effecting their total litho properties!!!!!
So ink techs are you going to sit there and say that glycols can effect the inks in all these ways but have zero effect on ink mileage?
Come on please, how daft do you think we are. Is it because you haven't embraced and changed technologies, that you don't want to agree and be telling your clients that the current ink mileage could be significantly better if the fountain solution was altered along with the ink. Simply due to a financial standpoint. (more mileage = bonus for the printer - negative for the ink manufacturer.
Green Printer
Registered Users
Lukew I like it Truthful every last word and no fairy tale analogies. Keep up the good work.
Having watched printers add (dump is a more accurate term) a product labeled as 'alcohol substitute' (about 85% ethylene glycol monobutyl ether and water) and another labeled 'non-piling additive' (50% ethylene glycol and water) to their fountain solution with buckets while printing catalogs and magazines in an unsuccessful attempt to extend times between blanket washes but without ill effect, I have always been skeptical of lab work that suggests unidentified 'glycols' and 'alcohol substitutes' have evil anti-ink properties. Anyone who suggests, as Bob apparently did back in 2008, that the wide variety of glycols and glycol ethers commonly used in fountain solution and alcohol substitute manufacture are more harmful to ink than alcohol is has not done comparative bench work or they would be aware that what they are suggesting lacks 'factuality'.
Other than promoting an un-named ink/fountain solution combination one of you seems to be promoting, the point of this thread seems to be that somehow an ink manufacture should be able to develop a fountain solution so compatible with their ink that no problems will ever plague the lucky printer who buys this combination. With the exception of Hostman-Steinberg who sold a product called CombiFix (the Rosos G7AV of Europe) and Sun Chemical's short lived partnership with IBC in North America, you do not see ink companies who own fountain solution companies (Sun/Rycoline, Flint/Varn, etc) promoting or even suggesting special compatibility.
Other than promoting an un-named ink/fountain solution combination one of you seems to be promoting, the point of this thread seems to be that somehow an ink manufacture should be able to develop a fountain solution so compatible with their ink that no problems will ever plague the lucky printer who buys this combination. With the exception of Hostman-Steinberg who sold a product called CombiFix (the Rosos G7AV of Europe) and Sun Chemical's short lived partnership with IBC in North America, you do not see ink companies who own fountain solution companies (Sun/Rycoline, Flint/Varn, etc) promoting or even suggesting special compatibility.
Kaoticor
Well-known member
Call it oversimplifying the matter, but my "Accurate" way of measuring ink mileage is "How many can's of Ink A does it take to finish a certain job as opposed to Ink B". 
Based off of my many precise tests...!!! (Not really)
We are in a slightly different position though since we DO run the same job with identical run lengths several times a year and I can log exactly how much ink is used over the course of weeks of production. We took this factor in to account when determining which ink we were going to pursue long term since one brand of ink had great color strength and achieved good "mileage". The yellow from the second brand of ink did not even come close to the mileage of the first one, but was chosen anyway due to acceptable quality, performance, and low cost.
I do agree that knowing the mileage is important. I think though, that if you have a capable press operator, he will know which ink goes further. Maybe thats just my old production floor self thinking
Based off of my many precise tests...!!! (Not really)
We are in a slightly different position though since we DO run the same job with identical run lengths several times a year and I can log exactly how much ink is used over the course of weeks of production. We took this factor in to account when determining which ink we were going to pursue long term since one brand of ink had great color strength and achieved good "mileage". The yellow from the second brand of ink did not even come close to the mileage of the first one, but was chosen anyway due to acceptable quality, performance, and low cost.
I do agree that knowing the mileage is important. I think though, that if you have a capable press operator, he will know which ink goes further. Maybe thats just my old production floor self thinking
Alois Senefelder
Well-known member
Guilty!
Guilty!
M'Lud,
I Alois Senefelder plead guilty of the following "Administer Noxious Additives" into Lithographic F.S.
Gentlemen of the Jury, in my defence - I only add 5Ltrs. at a time, not "Buckets" as some would claim.
I only ask that some clemency be shown, as to my Fate! - no Transportation to Former Colonies.
Regards, Alois
Guilty!
M'Lud,
I Alois Senefelder plead guilty of the following "Administer Noxious Additives" into Lithographic F.S.
Gentlemen of the Jury, in my defence - I only add 5Ltrs. at a time, not "Buckets" as some would claim.
I only ask that some clemency be shown, as to my Fate! - no Transportation to Former Colonies.
Regards, Alois
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Alois,
I have never met a printer (myself included, although I have not actually been paid to run a press since the 1980's) who, at one time or another, has not 'dosed' their fountain solution with one thing or another and plenty of companies make good money selling additives to be added to fountain solution (some good, some useless, some very damaging).
The only thing that really gets printers in trouble in this area is the mid-set that a good fountain solution keeps the plate background, dampening system, blankets, and circulator 'clean' leading to the very sensible (but totally wrong) idea that fountain solution is a cleaner and when not working as hoped, would benefit from the addition of some soap. I have watched printers put hand cleaner, dish soap, a product called 'Lestoil' (a floor cleaner), among other things into their fountain solution, usually to try and overcome sensitive plates, with sometimes ridiculous results.
I have never met a printer (myself included, although I have not actually been paid to run a press since the 1980's) who, at one time or another, has not 'dosed' their fountain solution with one thing or another and plenty of companies make good money selling additives to be added to fountain solution (some good, some useless, some very damaging).
The only thing that really gets printers in trouble in this area is the mid-set that a good fountain solution keeps the plate background, dampening system, blankets, and circulator 'clean' leading to the very sensible (but totally wrong) idea that fountain solution is a cleaner and when not working as hoped, would benefit from the addition of some soap. I have watched printers put hand cleaner, dish soap, a product called 'Lestoil' (a floor cleaner), among other things into their fountain solution, usually to try and overcome sensitive plates, with sometimes ridiculous results.
So what would you call the promotion of the LIBRA series from flint? Marketed as BALANCE, HARMONY, STABILITY
To me it looks like they are marketing a system they are saying has been developed to work together! But then again I'm just a stupid printer, what would I know.
http://www.flintgrp.com/en/news-information/documents/Libra_Technology.pdf
Europe - Flint Group Print Media announces the launch of LIBRA ink & fount technology - Flint Group
Dan, the post of mine in this thread were to outline the fact that a fountain solution "CAN" effect ink mileage. so far all the ink techs disagree with this..
Well tell me this if fountain solution has zero effect on ink mileage, does this mean I can add what ever I like and it won't alter mileage at all?
Maybe throw that fount back in that has 85% glycols and run it at full strength, hey what the heck, what about throwing a good 15% IPA in there.... Great to know that somehow inks have the ability to withstand solvents and not have their mileage altered at all...
Damn, so all that marketing regards alcohol free printing and "increased ink mileage - brighter/denser colours, from all the manufacturers and technical papers is just a crock ay....
Did you not start the thread 'Ink & Fountain solution Designed & Developed to work together'? I suppose then you are using one of these ink/fountain solution combination and are happy with it. My experience with these combinations in the past has usually been in the form of being told by a VP of Marketing that he has signed a deal to promote a particular fountain solution in conjunction with an ink company promoting an ink. These deals more often take place in a bar than in the laboratory or in a pressroom and compatibility is assumed rather than confirmed.
As for an '85% glycol fountain solution' at full strength (lets say 4%) that produces a fountain solution that is still 96.6% water. When doing ink/water testing have always found it interesting that many researchers only evaluate fountain solutions without using plain water as a control. More often than not, ink/water numbers (regardless of the method used to produce them) are better with fountain solution than when running water alone. Does this mean water is bad?
I am not surprised that ink people do not think fountain solution has a significant effect on ink mileage, although I could introduce you to people that have made the claim that their companies fountain solution would save a major US web printer millions of dollars a year in ink. The customer bought this line and adopted this companies products (it took several different fountain solutions to meet the need) but no savings ink ink were ever documented. My friends ink the ink business that were supplying these plants reported no measurable change in ink consumption vs press time.
The companies marketing IPA replacement products probably used the same verbiage in the past to sell alcohol, why would you expect them to ever change? They are marketing people after all....
As for an '85% glycol fountain solution' at full strength (lets say 4%) that produces a fountain solution that is still 96.6% water. When doing ink/water testing have always found it interesting that many researchers only evaluate fountain solutions without using plain water as a control. More often than not, ink/water numbers (regardless of the method used to produce them) are better with fountain solution than when running water alone. Does this mean water is bad?
I am not surprised that ink people do not think fountain solution has a significant effect on ink mileage, although I could introduce you to people that have made the claim that their companies fountain solution would save a major US web printer millions of dollars a year in ink. The customer bought this line and adopted this companies products (it took several different fountain solutions to meet the need) but no savings ink ink were ever documented. My friends ink the ink business that were supplying these plants reported no measurable change in ink consumption vs press time.
The companies marketing IPA replacement products probably used the same verbiage in the past to sell alcohol, why would you expect them to ever change? They are marketing people after all....
Dan, No we don't use a developed system (ink/fount) as it isn't available in our Country.
The system I speak of, yes we have trialed and it exceeded any other ink/fountain solution combo we have ever run on the machine.
I put this forth to the ink techs.
We had been running for a period of time with our fountain solution having 3% IPA in it (a true digital readout). The cip 3 profiles for coated/uncoated stocks had been fine tuned, so that colours were correct from the profiles.
We then ran half a job then dumped the fountain solution flushed and cleaned the system & refilled with fresh fount but 0% IPA, we then washed decks up and then inked up again with the set pre inking and pulled some sheets. Density was through the roof and continued to climb..
I then adjusted profiles and dropped the ink keys by a large amount along with ink sweep. to bring density back into line.
I am now running uncoated stock on the old coated profile (the one that we used when 3% IPA was in the fount)
Please tell me your thoughts, Do you think ink mileage has changed at all ?
The system I speak of, yes we have trialed and it exceeded any other ink/fountain solution combo we have ever run on the machine.
I put this forth to the ink techs.
We had been running for a period of time with our fountain solution having 3% IPA in it (a true digital readout). The cip 3 profiles for coated/uncoated stocks had been fine tuned, so that colours were correct from the profiles.
We then ran half a job then dumped the fountain solution flushed and cleaned the system & refilled with fresh fount but 0% IPA, we then washed decks up and then inked up again with the set pre inking and pulled some sheets. Density was through the roof and continued to climb..
I then adjusted profiles and dropped the ink keys by a large amount along with ink sweep. to bring density back into line.
I am now running uncoated stock on the old coated profile (the one that we used when 3% IPA was in the fount)
Please tell me your thoughts, Do you think ink mileage has changed at all ?
Alois Senefelder
Well-known member
Ipa
Ipa
Lukew,
Yes, IPA is a known Lithographic Ink - Diluent
You should buy - 99% Anhydrous Isopropanol
Regards, Alois
Ipa
Lukew,
Yes, IPA is a known Lithographic Ink - Diluent
You should buy - 99% Anhydrous Isopropanol
Regards, Alois
Al Ferrari
Well-known member
Why is it important that the Isopropanol be Anhydrous, if it is to be added to water based fountain solution???
Al
Al
Lukew,
Your description of removing the IPA and then having the ink density high at the same settings is what we expect to see, but diluting or thinning the ink is not the only cause at work here. One of the problems with polyester plates is the silver halide image is not very oleophilic. Most people blame polyester plate problems on the properties of the plate background, but the image area is not going to work very hard to remove ink from the rollers and the image is easy to 'wet' with surface active agents. When you removed the IPA, the ABC fountain solution (is this Allied All Star under private label?, I think it might be) still did a good job of wetting the polyester background, but was dramatically less capable of wetting the image area, allowing better transfer of the ink in the rollers, thus the higher density. I suspect if you were able to measure precisely the amount of ink used to print the job with or without IPA there may not be much difference, you just have to have more ink in the rollers to effect the same transfer to the plate when running IPA.
IPA is technically not a surfactant, but a surface tension lowering solvent and will help water wet whatever it comes in contact with more or less equally. The surfactants in your fountain solution represent a mixture of hydrophilic and oleophilic components in a particular ratio that allows the fountain solution to wet the plate background, but not the image area.
My question about the gravity of your IPA is based on the gravity of IPA should be 0.79. It will not be lower than this, but if it is higher, it means the alcohol is diluted with water (unfortunately a common practice). If you can measure the IPAs' gravity you can determine its purity and if impure, how much water is in it. A web printer on the South Island next door to you all was buying IPA containing 20% water, a clue was they thought they were getting a good deal.
Your description of removing the IPA and then having the ink density high at the same settings is what we expect to see, but diluting or thinning the ink is not the only cause at work here. One of the problems with polyester plates is the silver halide image is not very oleophilic. Most people blame polyester plate problems on the properties of the plate background, but the image area is not going to work very hard to remove ink from the rollers and the image is easy to 'wet' with surface active agents. When you removed the IPA, the ABC fountain solution (is this Allied All Star under private label?, I think it might be) still did a good job of wetting the polyester background, but was dramatically less capable of wetting the image area, allowing better transfer of the ink in the rollers, thus the higher density. I suspect if you were able to measure precisely the amount of ink used to print the job with or without IPA there may not be much difference, you just have to have more ink in the rollers to effect the same transfer to the plate when running IPA.
IPA is technically not a surfactant, but a surface tension lowering solvent and will help water wet whatever it comes in contact with more or less equally. The surfactants in your fountain solution represent a mixture of hydrophilic and oleophilic components in a particular ratio that allows the fountain solution to wet the plate background, but not the image area.
My question about the gravity of your IPA is based on the gravity of IPA should be 0.79. It will not be lower than this, but if it is higher, it means the alcohol is diluted with water (unfortunately a common practice). If you can measure the IPAs' gravity you can determine its purity and if impure, how much water is in it. A web printer on the South Island next door to you all was buying IPA containing 20% water, a clue was they thought they were getting a good deal.
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