Old school and/or New press ?

[Darth Cantu]

Just because the presses have all this automation doesnt make the short term operator a pressman.. it takes time to be able to identify problems and resolve issues caused by variables such as bad water, bad paper ink problems. I work with a bunch of operators and very few accual pressmen. You can never replace 20 years exprience. Trouble shooting skills are the skills that save the day or the job.

Im sure you all have worked with atleast one pressman who has said "I have forgotten more about printing the you will ever know".....

So next time you see the new guy who thinks he knows his shit grab a knife full of magenta and ask him if he think the ink smells spoiled .... you probably know the rest... or ask him to go get you the left handed screw driver...

maybe the paper stretcher, or the box of half tones

 

[CSimpson]

To answer the original question...Experience means a lot!

I started running a QM-46 about 1 year ago and I had no prior experience running a press. In two days I was running jobs good enough for my in-plant; however, I would never go somewhere else and tell them I am a press operator much less an experienced pressman because even though most of my current customers don't see my mistakes I know I make a ton off them. Off course I don't have preset ink keys or densitometers to help me out, but I am also not running four colors either. I am sure an experienced pressman can detect and make the proper feed table adjustments much faster than me, and I am sure they a quicker at getting set-up with less waste than me, I would even say they can keep the machine in better working order than I can.

Sounds like your supervisor doesn't know much about what you do.

 

[SpeedKing]

Hi,

I thought I would try a post to see if I can clear up a discussion/aurgument thats been ongoing on my shopfloor. I have been a Printer/Supervisor for 20 years and have ran everything from a platen (remember them!) to a brand new SM74. In this time I have used various inking and dampening systems most of which were manually adjusted. So I believe that the experience I've built up benefits me, even though most of the manual skills on the press are not really needed.

However another Supervisor argues that you could train anybody up (within reason) on a SM74 and after a while (not 20 years!) they could do exactly the same job as someone with experience. The arguement being 'Does 20 odd years of experience on manual presses benefit anyone who runs a press with ink presetting, automatic sheet size/resize, auto pressure setting' etc.

I would really like to hear what you guys think.

Thanks, Lee

EXPERIENCE AND KNOW HOW IS EVEYTHING,if your good then you will adapt to something new,not everyone can print,let alone adapt!

 

[GazKL440]

At the end of the day a printer is a problem solver. We deal with issues relating to our machinery, the current stock, artwork etc. I think you can probably train any mug to run todays automated presses, but with a pressman who has busted his chops on old shit you have an operator who is generally on top of problems before they become major issue, and can see a problem and rectify before it becomes a costly drama or a re-print. Experienced operators minimise downtime and turn around time, whereas less seasoned operators can turn a small prob into a major f**k up in no time... without knowing how or why..I spent years on Solna's Akiyama's and an old busted arse Rekord that continually fell apart.. but we stll needed 100,000 sheets per day so you worked around problems and simply dealt with it.. i consider that experience invaluable today, and feel that it has given me a big edge over co-workers who have never seen a manual ink key or sewed dampener covers.. they may not be relevent to what i currently operate but when the shit hits the fan i have the answers

 

[SpeedKing]

At the end of the day a printer is a problem solver. We deal with issues relating to our machinery, the current stock, artwork etc. I think you can probably train any mug to run todays automated presses, but with a pressman who has busted his chops on old shit you have an operator who is generally on top of problems before they become major issue, and can see a problem and rectify before it becomes a costly drama or a re-print. Experienced operators minimise downtime and turn around time, whereas less seasoned operators can turn a small prob into a major f**k up in no time... without knowing how or why..I spent years on Solna's Akiyama's and an old busted arse Rekord that continually fell apart.. but we stll needed 100,000 sheets per day so you worked around problems and simply dealt with it.. i consider that experience invaluable today, and feel that it has given me a big edge over co-workers who have never seen a manual ink key or sewed dampener covers.. they may not be relevent to what i currently operate but when the shit hits the fan i have the answers

thats pretty much it.

 

[duct maestro]

Old men cant operate mobile phones never mind a fully automated machine. Yes maybe they have a good eye for colour? but as for the new toys on the machine I would say clueless.

 

[GazKL440]

Thats a pretty big call champ, generalisation tends to give ppl the shits.. Regardless of age or technological ability experience still carries a lot of weight, and if you wan to keep your job you keep ahead of the curve, by that i mean actively learning how and more importantly why new fangled tools work.. doing the hard yards and get an understanding of your technological aids.. My old company won awards printing 4 col work on a Solna125 with conventional dampening and not a densitometer in sight!

What do you do if the stock wont feed.. or you get marking, or screens are filling in, (insert endless list of probs here)

Do you call a rep and twiddle your thumbs while they charge $500 an hour to sort out something that a good operator intuitively has under control, or at the very least a few ideas that may resolve the problem and get the job done?

As for me, the tech or engineer are last resort, as i know how much it costs not only up front but in down time and productivity pressure.. and the aim of the game is to make money right? that would be the reason we aren't running platens any more..

 

[SpeedKing]

good point.

 

[gordo]

Thats a pretty big call champ, generalisation tends to give ppl the shits.

Well said. Thanks from a greybeard.

best, gordon p

my print blog here: Quality In Print

 

[SpeedKing]

Hello Gordo,your photography is brilliant,which cameras do you use? regards.

 

[sgirard]

I thought I heard that Gordo doesn't use a camera; he manually assembles color separations one dot at a time in Photoshop

Hello Gordo,your photography is brilliant,which cameras do you use? regards.

 

[Bigbadlee]

At the end of the day a printer is a problem solver. We deal with issues relating to our machinery, the current stock, artwork etc. I think you can probably train any mug to run todays automated presses, but with a pressman who has busted his chops on old shit you have an operator who is generally on top of problems before they become major issue, and can see a problem and rectify before it becomes a costly drama or a re-print. Experienced operators minimise downtime and turn around time, whereas less seasoned operators can turn a small prob into a major f**k up in no time... without knowing how or why..I spent years on Solna's Akiyama's and an old busted arse Rekord that continually fell apart.. but we stll needed 100,000 sheets per day so you worked around problems and simply dealt with it.. i consider that experience invaluable today, and feel that it has given me a big edge over co-workers who have never seen a manual ink key or sewed dampener covers.. they may not be relevent to what i currently operate but when the shit hits the fan i have the answers

Thanks GazKL,

That pretty much sums it up. It's amazing that the simple problems that I occur day to day which I solve without even thinking about it (pretty much so!) can be a drama for less experienced operators.

I agree with the 'problem solver' description, as I've explained to other operators is to try to spot potential problems and remedy them before they become major issues. On older presses without automation there are a lot of things for the pressman to be aware of. I am a firm believer that pressmen should work their way up in what they run, i.e start on single colour then progress to 2 col then 4 col etc.

However I have proved recently that automation does get the job done. Here is the scene:-

2 urgent jobs, 1 is a 4 col c5 envelope on a GTO52 and the other is a 4 col leaflet on a SM74

I was short handed due to holidays and only had a guy with 4 year exp on 1-2 col presses. I started the leaflet and put the other guy on the GTO. After 30 mins I was finished the 1st side and watching the other operator struggle cocking plates manually to get the fit on the envelope. So I take over on the GTO, put the other operator on the SM74 and voila!. He runs the leaflet off no probs and I get the envelope ran off!

I think I would still be waiting for him to get the fit and settle the colours down if I had left him on the GTO.

Thank you to everyone who posted!

Regards

Lee

 

[gordo]

I thought I heard that Gordo doesn't use a camera; he manually assembles color separations one dot at a time in Photoshop

Correct - and with FM dots no less! The tool I use to do the job is a Sony a350 and SAL 18-250mm lens LOL!
("A camera takes a picture, a photographer makes the image")

best, gordo

my print blog here: Quality In Print

PS if you want to chat photography contact me at pritchardgordon@gmail dot com

 

[HecTiK]

I'm still wet behind the ears, but I'd say it has a lot to do with how the press is maintained. We have a late 60's Hantscho Mark IV that does allright, an early 80's Mitsubishi 750 lithrone that normally walks circles around everything else, and a mid to late 80's Komori Sys 38 that always has problems. It's always bouncing off the op limit on the chill guide eyes, and on every startup the folder is almost something different. But with experienced operators, we always figure it out (more reason to not fix it).

 

[PatQcCa]

Little true story

Little true story

OLD SCHOOL AND / OR NEW PRESS

Returning to the original post...do we need experience to run an offset press with a lot of automation ?

Here a little story....

One thing is sure when everything is under control, when the big machine, 4 color, is running Ã* 9 000 prints / hour, When the young buck is proud to be the press man, when the foreman think he finally found a good prospect (learn fast, want to work) the paradise is near...

one day, BANG!

Problem !: sorry, but automation for this and automation for that won't tell our young buck what is this mess : small amount of water in the recirculation system!

The foreman left the building for 2 days : fishing trip.

The guy who worked on an old platen is retire!

The 3 other press operator : two of them work on duplicator and they think that the young buck is in deep troubles! The third one, was bump by the young buck, on that big press and laugh a lot when he saw the chiller was dry out...the technician bypass the sensor for the maintenance last time...

He left the young buck beside the big machine for a complete hour before offering his help and fix the very basic problem...

Funny thing about this story ? That day the big boss was not on a green ! and saw all the action. Finally, the former ''bumped'' pressman regain is place beside de big 4 color press.

The young buck since then work on a small duplicator and he is very proud to work with is new friend and mentor who saved his job!

Do we need experience to run an offset press : YES!

 

[canadian printer]

old school

old school

I started as a feeder and worked my way up to the big presses. I see WAY too many young guys who become totally lost when they have a print problem. I've seen them say the press is broken when all it was is unset rollers or something simple. We have become button pushers with the new tech on the presses but you need to know what those buttons do. An old saying your not selling the color bars they get trimmed out. You still need an eye for color!

 

[RNRPRINTINGNMAILING]

Short and simple
Old school is the best, it teaches you to appreciate your craft. And how to deal with different problems
as they arise. I would take some one with 20 years of experience who know how to tweak a job
as to someone getting wet behind the ears.

 

[Mlpklr]

Unfortunately it appears this is the mindset and path of the industry. Reliance on automation has dwindled the craftsmanship to an all time low. Automation is intended to make an operators job easier, not take over for an unqualified pressman. Remember the days of manual ink key settings (no color consoles); you actually looked at the ink film thickness you were carrying.......nowadays many operators never look at the fountain roller, they only know what the digital number on the console says.

It's amazing to me that many owners spend millions of dollars on a new machine, then skimp on the quality of pressmen they entrust to properly run, maintain, and generally take care of that investment.

Automation is to help a good operator be more efficient, not to make an un-qualified operator "Qualified".

 

[canadian printer]

Well said! Totally correct. The true journeyman pressman is a dying breed.I would love to see some of the young guys run a 4 color job on a 2/c press. Remember those days when only the big shops had the 4/c color presses. We have become the 7/11 of printers. How fast and how cheap you can produce it and can we have the job tomorrow?

 

[gordo]

I think that printers historically see their role as access to technology - intermediaries between creative and output. As a result, they see their craftsmanship as something to be valued as they translate digital input from customers into analog output on press.

But from a customer point of view they're more like a PPD or PCL - effectively print drivers. Invisible (unless something goes wrong) and adding no perceived value (unless the output device/press won't do what is requested of it).

If they could think, PPDs and PCLs would have a certain sense of self importance in the workflow since without them the printer/press is just an expensive paper weight. However, as presses become more automated and reliable - the intermediary, a press operator, does not have an opportunity to add value. Just as there is no craftsmanship between me and my desktop inkjet.

I think that "craftsmanship" needs to be redefined. It's not only about the mechanical skills in running a press. I think that in the service industry that print is, the role of craftsmanship is to be a component in the printshop's marketing program. Craftsmanship is about the tailoring and aligning of presswork, services, and the printer's face to the customer. Craftsmanship is not about mechanical skills, it is about customer understanding, product and service development, and relationship building.

best, gordon p