Online Printing Prices...

[kdw75]

Every so often I will do a search in Google for "printing" and see how far down the page our shop shows up. Today though I tried clicking on the topmost link, which is a paid advertisement of course. This was a place similar to Vistaprint, in that they had facilities all over the US, and one abroad, they also had the latest and greatest equipment. What got me really shaking my head was how cheaply they were offering their work. They would print, crease, fold, package, and ship a job to your door for around half the price we would charge. The only difference being that they took long, and this got me wondering two things. First of all, why do I even bother trying to compete in this industry, and secondly how they can do enough volume at those prices to cover all the overhead they must have.

We are a little family shop, and none of us make over 60K a year, not even the owner, we don't have retirement packages, except a plot out back, and we don't have a fancy new building or rent to pay for. Then I see these places selling jobs dirt cheap, paying their workers $30/hr with benefit packages, fancy buildings, and the owner running around in a Mercedes or Range Rover. I just can't imagine how you could make so much money at such low prices, just by upping the volume.

I am also amazed at the short run work they run offset. I am constantly seeing these big printshops putting short 500 color runs on offset, vs digital. We have gone the other direction, as our run lengths have gotten shorter. The majority of our work is runs of less than 3,000, so we have moved most of our work away from offset, as it takes to long to do the setups on such short runs.

 

[Fatboysmart]

The main reason as far as I know is they use large sheetsize offset presses (either owned or outsourced) and combine 8 or 16 orders on a large sheet. Thats why the price usually goes up considerably if you want it delivered fast because that makes it harder to combine it with other jobs. Color accuracy usually goes out the window because the color balance on the press is an average of all the jobs on the sheet... but hey, it's cheap so who cares right :-(

 

[dabob]

That reminds me of a day long long long ago (late 70's, early 80s) in a state far away . . . there was a company called westex (to the best of my memory) that printed 1000 black and white business cards for 20 bucks - we found out they were printing them 88 up . .. the math says 1760 bucks for a 1000 sheet run . .. I would love to be able to charge that today - just saying

 

[nhprinter]

That reminds me of a day long long long ago (late 70's, early 80s) in a state far away . . . there was a company called westex (to the best of my memory) that printed 1000 black and white business cards for 20 bucks - we found out they were printing them 88 up . .. the math says 1760 bucks for a 1000 sheet run . .. I would love to be able to charge that today - just saying

I was going to mention this. I worked for a small commercial printer in the 80's that would run a 19x25 sheet full of B&W business cards every friday. (we use to call it the "gang bang") Big money maker. Today we couldn't find 2 companies locally that will both use even the same STOCK never mind print in black.

 

[ninaspears]

I believe that these kind of printing companies do gang run. Run multiples jobs at the same time for them it doesn't matter what they are getting the final product!

 

[Stephen Marsh]

In addition to gang printing, these places are also automated as much as possible/practical.

The order and artwork file is created or uploaded through a web portal and into MIS/ERP.

The artwork file is then automatically downloaded and preflighted and automatically imposed, plated etc.

Human touch points and manual work is reduced or removed. A phrase sometimes bandied about is “lights out prepress”, however automation may flow further with JDF into finishing etc.

This requires investment, however the payback is greater speed, less errors, and less cost to handle a large volume of work.


Stephen Marsh

 

[kdw75]

In addition to gang printing, these places are also automated as much as possible/practical.

The order and artwork file is created or uploaded through a web portal and into MIS/ERP.

The artwork file is then automatically downloaded and preflighted and automatically imposed, plated etc.

Human touch points and manual work is reduced or removed. A phrase sometimes bandied about is “lights out prepress”, however automation may flow further with JDF into finishing etc.

This requires investment, however the payback is greater speed, less errors, and less cost to handle a large volume of work.


Stephen Marsh

I just can't imagine automating preflight very much, unless you have decent files, put together by knowledgeable people. Some of our bigger clients send in perfect files all the time, but some we get are just a hot mess, the people have no business near a keyboard. They require innovative ways to deal with bizarre problems. How could you possibly automate fixing those? Unless they would just kick them back to the customer.

We have one big client, who is very picky about consistency of her colors, yet every time she modifies her file she screw up the layers of shadows and transparency, causing her color to be different than she wants. I go in and fix all this, drag out the bleeds she forgets, and make things consistent. Could an automated workflow do this? If so I am more out of date than I realized.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I just can't imagine automating preflight very much, unless you have decent files, put together by knowledgeable people. Some of our bigger clients send in perfect files all the time, but some we get are just a hot mess, the people have no business near a keyboard. They require innovative ways to deal with bizarre problems. How could you possibly automate fixing those? Unless they would just kick them back to the customer.

We have one big client, who is very picky about consistency of her colors, yet every time she modifies her file she screw up the layers of shadows and transparency, causing her color to be different than she wants. I go in and fix all this, drag out the bleeds she forgets, and make things consistent. Could an automated workflow do this? If so I am more out of date than I realized.

Automation, can be broad in scope and often semi-automation may be a more realistic term.

Just look at the size of prepess departments that use workflow software compared to those that don’t. They are generally half to a quarter size for comparable workloads. I am not talking about rules based automated workflow systems, which could reduce the staff numbers down even further. Prepress workflow vendors will be touting the cost savings of reducing the ongoing cost of employing staff to a company considering an update or new workflow.

It can start with the method of file submission. Using Enfocus as an example, they have products such as Connect (previously Enfocus InstantPDF was a “similar” type of product). This helps to ensure that a PDF is created in a predictable and consistent fashion and removes many issues with the PDF before it is submitted. Of course, one can also supply PDF settings to clients for use in Adobe apps etc.

Then there are products such as Enfocus PitStop Server. In addition to preflight automation, fixes can be automatically applied. Granted everything may not have an automatic fix applied, there may be warnings or errors. Using a product such as Enfocus Switch, further automation can be applied with both Enfocus products and third party products.

In the case of a W2P system that is creating the PDF artwork of say business cards, it will likely be 100% print ready when generated – or it may be 95% ready and passing it through PitStop Server or a workflow system such as Kodak Prinergy will remove any minor issues with the W2P art.

It will of course depend on the incoming files and the output on how much automation can be applied.

As to bleeds, with PitStip Pro 12 one can automate extending bleeds of vector content and with the new upcoming version 13 there are options to be “creative” with raster content – flipping/mirroring rasters to automatically create bleed (which may not be appropriate for all image content):

https://esko.box.com/s/bie0hj8qs0e72g7mt53xj2vwfuvlrlie


Stephen Marsh

 

[keith1]

I regularly deal with a couple of trade shops such as this in the Toronto area. There are also a couple of similar type shops in the area I wouldn't deal with again if it were free.
The secret of course is volume, much the same as major grocery chains. It's why they advertise like crazy in trade publications. It's very stiff competition in this area.

I suppose I'm considered a broker. I hate that term. It implies sales person. I used to run presses, assemble film, etc., etc.. I'm a production guy who now sits on his ass at home and does the computer end before uploading to press. Yes I often have to see clients and do the sales thing. New clients are relieved to get someone that actually knows a bit.

Anyways, getting back. I would love to sell custom jobs. However it's also my job to point out the options available, and as soon as clients get gang run pricing options as opposed to say, a more custom type paper, they're sold.
This isn't a bad thing. Trade (gang) shops are offering more options all the time. Different finishes, die cutting, labels, even packaging. They use digital press for under 1,000 . . .

The main thing however is customer service. The key (for me) is to find a shop that I can call or email and get a satisfactory and knowledgeable response. The shops I won't deal with have zero customer service. They claim to but they don't. Their quality/delivery times are pretty iffy as well.

As automated as these shops are, printing is still an area where personal contact can be absolutely necessary at times. I don't mind paying a little extra to know I can explain aspects of a particular job and I must also know that if there is a problem it will be corrected in a timely manner.

I may have strayed from topic a bit. I think my point is that trade gang printers will pretty much win the day, much as large grocery chains have won over independents. Not necessarily a good thing, just what it is. Naturally the market is still out there for large custom projects. Clients need deep pockets to afford that though. Most of my customers are small business and need to save where they can. Fortunately I have enough print knowledge to tart up their quality somewhat and still remain within the gang run options.

Keith

 

[kdw75]

Thanks for that insight Keith.

The reason we are still in business is that our largest clients have occasionally called us saying they need a full cover custom job the next day. We have it to them every time. We will come in and work whenever we need to in order to make sure they are satisfied.

Many companies don't care enough about that kind of service though to pay a penny more.

I have recently started selling, which is not something I enjoy, but I want my business to grow. I keep running into cases with large potential clients, that it's more about connections than anything else when they choose a printer. I had one guy telling me how much he hated their printer, because of poor service and errors in jobs, but that he had to use them because the printers parent company was a large purchaser of their products.

I ran into another case where the purchaser at a company was the sister-in-law of the manager at the other print shop.

This stuff wouldn't matter so much, but we are in a small city where there aren't that many large clients to acquire and the 3 main printers, is being one, have over capacity. Then if you try to sell out of the area you are directly competing with these big trade printers.

 

[keith1]

Some gang Trade shops offer rush service - for a price. At which point customers invariably back off and decide they weren't in such a rush after all. Some shops only offer the 'cookie cutter' gang run services, while others offer a full range of custom service as well as the gang runs. They typically run at least 2 shifts. Gotta pay for that equipment!

I deal with 3 or 4 shops, not for price so much but depending on what I need. One shop might make better pocket folders than another. And while it's pretty competitive, there can be sizable price differences on some items. My envelopes & roll labels go to specialized shops - digital roll or flexo & envelope feeders (Halm Jet). Again, to use the same analogy, it's become like shopping for groceries.
It puts me in a good position because not having production equipment of my own (aside from computer related) I can shop the best product for my customer.

Many small shops have closed their doors over the past 5 or 10 years. They couldn't afford to keep up with technology (colour), other than maybe putting in a laser copier. Many mid size and even large shops have amalgamated or sold out to others.

And yes, you're bang on; the best opportunity for obtaining a new client is when they're pissed off at their current supplier.
I'm starting to lose interest. Probably retire in a couple years. We'll see. It's not like I work hard anymore.

Keith

 

[Possumgal]

I was going to mention this. I worked for a small commercial printer in the 80's that would run a 19x25 sheet full of B&W business cards every friday. (we use to call it the "gang bang") Big money maker. Today we couldn't find 2 companies locally that will both use even the same STOCK never mind print in black.

In the 80's I worked for a place that had bought a lot of paper stock from an out of business printer. We offered a really cheap price, black ink only, but boy, could you get some wild stock for them.

 

[maxleed]

Still we have a good number of printing vendors having very reasonable prices for the custom jobs. However it depends from company to company what their goals are either earning Dollars or providing long term business relationship.

 

[kdw75]

I found a major weakness when it comes to these online shops, which surprised me. I had a client that is ultra picky, and wants full color letterheads, business cards and envelopes, all with bleeds, and all must be offset. They also wanted them printed on a specific paper 25% cotton paper.

I thought this would be a perfect headache to farm out to someone with top of the line equipment. I couldn't find a single place that would order in the stock we needed, or let us ship ours to them. They all act like anything out of the ordinary isn't worth doing. I had expected an extra charge, but the three I talked to just said no thanks.

 

[maxleed]

It depends Normally for such custom stocks like linen or cotton paper including biodegradable online vendors are sometimes limited to that, However i have seen for standard stock items they can offer a reasonable amount and services.

 

[Neil at MailSJ]

This is my first post in the forum, so forgive me if I'm out of line with any of my input. I come from a different background than many of you. My background is marketing and advertising sales.

In my opinion there are more factors than simply price. Every one of my customers is aware that they may be able to save a few bucks by shopping online. They buy from me because they are confident the job will get done correctly. They know if there's a problem they don't need to submit a ticket number, they can just call me.

My customers value my input. They know that my 25 years of experience in design and layout can make a difference in the finished project. Any printer, online or retail can put printed words on a sheet of paper or a postcard, but what advice can customers REALLY get from the little chat window that says "how can we help you today?".

I also stress the importance of shopping local to all of my customers. By supporting local suppliers like myself, they help keep the local economy strong.

I think online pricing needs to be addressed to new customers before they even bring it up. I get it out there in the open right away and tell them why shopping online may save them a few pennies here and there, but at the end of the day may end up costing more in lost time and aggravation. Ask your customer what their time is worth? How does dealing locally save them time, and how does that translate into dollars? I recently met with a real estate agent who decided he can do his own direct mailing using his broker's paper and copier. He spent two full days printing 10,000 cards, counting out bundles of 100, and rubber banding them, tying up and jamming the copier angering the other agents in the office. I asked him how his 16 hours might have been better spent seeing potential clients, making calls and prospecting. He just didn't get it, and some people never will, but smart business people understand this.

My best customers are the ones who have tried to save a few dollars by shopping online in the past. They realize that the few pennies saved were not nearly worth the aggravation.

My advice is to read up on customer relationships, loyalty and sales. Jeff Gittomer has written some good books on both topics and keeps it light and humerous. His site is here. (Buy Gitomer: Sales training, books, seminars, and consulting - sales techniques to motivate your sales force)

 

[slush11]

I work for a company that prints for one of these major "Vistaprint"-like corporations. We're the only printer for all of Western Canada for them. We receive all the jobs on (for example) Monday at midnight that have to be shipped Tuesday. Our contract states 24 hours to produce and ship. So Our staff loads them all up (remember its provided art) and just hits print. Someone on their end is worrying about imposition and crop marks and all that so by the time we get it, we literally have to do nothing but hit print. Most of them are running on our digital offset press overnight (we can set it to pull from different trays for different stocks without even being in the building). This happens on the night shift. Tuesday morning, they go to bindery and then get shipped. The company we print for has a deal with purolator so they pay for all the shipping labels and boxes so all it takes is for one human to stuff boxes/envelopes and another human to run QC. Then we do it all over again on Tuesday, Wednesday, etc...
When we're not running jobs for them, we run our own clients' jobs. I think it all comes down to what process you're using as well as what printer you have. If you're running stuff in that volume on a Ricoh Copier, you're not going to have the same costs as if you're running it on an offset.
I should also mention that the company we print for has amazing customer service. I've only seen three misprints (that were our fault), but their people contacted the client immediately and corrected the problem. Then it was shipped out the next day. They pride themselves on fast turnaround, good customer service, and quality product. I've also caught a few jobs in shipping that I felt shouldn't have passes post-press QC. There were the same picture of the same person in a couple different sizes in no real order. SO I flagged it, we contacted the client, and reprinted it for free. Clearly these people aren't all that computer savvy and likely didn't know what they were agreeing to when they accepted the online proof.
Anyways, sorry to have strayed, just wanted to point out that there are some good ones out there.

My only issue with these companies is you can't replace creativity. All the jobs are basically templates from the website unless of course the client has designed it themselves (in which case it usually looks horrible-come on, we all know it).

 

[keith1]

(we can set it to pull from different trays for different stocks without even being in the building).

That's funny. When I ran presses and things were going well I'd leave it going and drive up to the store.
Things could have gone terribly wrong but fortunately never did.

Keith

 

[slush11]

That's funny. When I ran presses and things were going well I'd leave it going and drive up to the store.
Things could have gone terribly wrong but fortunately never did.

Keith

Don't get me wrong...things do sometimes go sideways lol. But these machines are crazy expensive and incredibly powerful. We do have staff monitoring them but for the most part, they don't really need to be there lol