Opening .pdfs in Illustrator

[mattbeals]

Besides PitStop and PitStop Extreme there really isn't anything that is a native PDF editor. There are tools that first translate the PDF into a proprietary internal format, and the export it back out as a when you save it.

If PitStop can't do it, then you really should go back to the beginning. PitStop can do *a lot* of things when it comes to editing. The question is how much do you want to do...

 

[MJNC]

Hi Matt Beals;
Tell me about PitStop Extreme, please. What you like, don’t like, etc. It is sounding more and more like I have been doing this right all along. But would like your comments anyway.
BUT I will not get them until Monday in the am because the work week is over in 10 minutes!
Have a wonderful weekend. Thanks for the numbers... I may use them yet.
Peace to the PrintPlanet!
Kind Regards,
_mjnc

 

[mattbeals]

PitStop Extreme is PitStop Pro without the need for Adobe Acrobat, that's all it is.

 

[Joe]

Hi Matt Beals;
Tell me about PitStop Extreme, please. What you like, don’t like, etc. It is sounding more and more like I have been doing this right all along. But would like your comments anyway.
BUT I will not get them until Monday in the am because the work week is over in 10 minutes!
Have a wonderful weekend. Thanks for the numbers... I may use them yet.
Peace to the PrintPlanet!
Kind Regards,
_mjnc

You might have more luck if you open the PDF in Acrobat and select the object you want to capture with the "Touchup Object Tool" and open it with the correct editor (Photoshop for images - Illustrator for vector objects) by right clicking and selecting "Edit Image (Photoshop) or Edit Object (Illustrator)" from the menu. Rarely is there a valid reason to open a PDF in Illustrator if it's not an Illustrator PDF as mentioned by Dov (or unless you are one of those packaging grunts like beermonster ).

 

[mattbeals]

The editing tools in Acrobat, Touchup object, work very well.

 

[michaelejahn]

what about...

what about...

Besides PitStop and PitStop Extreme there really isn't anything that is a native PDF editor. There are tools that first translate the PDF into a proprietary internal format, and the export it back out as a when you save it..

um, well, i do not think you can really call anything a native PDF editor - the moment you edit, that is the moment you add things that may (or may not) need to be removed (when you save) this is also the case with eiditing a PDF with enfocus tools and and Adobe illustrator.

Other companies to consider;

ONEVISION - PUBLISHING SOLUTIONS

Global Graphics

www.esko.com/
-- weird, this is down when i checked it

Introduction to PDF/X

Michael Jahn
Jahn & Associates
PDF Conversion Specialist
1824 North Garvin Avenue
Simi Valley
California 93065
Office: (805) 527 8130
Cell: (805) 217 6741
Email: [email protected]
Skype: michaelejahn
Twitter: Michael Jahn (michaelejahn) on Twitter
Blog: Michael Jahn's blog

 

[claude72]

Rarely is there a valid reason to open a PDF in Illustrator if it's not an Illustrator PDF as mentioned by Dov

A good reason is to extract or pick-up some elements from an output PDF: it's often easier and safier to open the whole page in Illustrator and suppress all the not-needed elements keeping just a logo, than to open the page in Acrobat and select all the elements of the logo to edit them, with the risk to miss or forget some elements!

(as I said before, I often use this method to extract a vector logo from a PDF downloaded on internet: a newsletter, an internal report, an inscription form... everything that is easily and quickly downloadable and contains correct vector logos is usable... believe me, when a job has to be printed next day early morning, it's a good tip to get an (almost) original logo from a company, even when it's too late to ask somebody of this company to send you the logo, or when a stupid secretary has sent you only the JPEG and GIF crap files that he/she has in his/her PC for office jobs)


Another reason (and it seems to be MJNC's actual problem) is to make a new job using an "old" output PDF as a basis, just because the stupid guy who gave you the PDF (or said you to download it from his web-site) is not able to understand the difference between an output PDF and an Illustrator editing PDF with AI datas to work on it easily with Illustrator.


But Joe is right: these both cases are exceptional situations (or should be...) that, AFAIK, have not (yet) been planed by software developpers/editors... because the normal common ways to work with PDF are:

• either you have to print the PDF, and you get an output PDF, and then PitStop or PitStop Extreme or Neo are the good tools to made some minor corrections and to fix some issues...

• or you have to work with the PDF, and (normally) you get an editing PDF, made specially to work with it, by saving from Illustrator with the "preserve Illustrator Editing Capabilities" option, and containing (as explained by Dov) both a PDF part and an AI part.
This PDF is then used as a "transfer" file, easy viewable by anybody in a PDF reader (just using its PDF part), and easy workable by designers with Illustrator (using its AI part)...

... but, again, the situation where the supplier of the PDF mistakes and gives an output PDF (instead of an editing PDF) to work in it has not been planed by software developpers/editors.
So, in this particular situation you have to cope with non-adapted tools and use workarounds, like:
• open the PDF with Illustrator, clean it, remove the old stuff and add the new stuff,
• or remove the old stuff with PitStop, import this "emptied" PDF as a "background" in an InDesign page, and add the new stuff in InDesign...

 

[mattbeals]

Wouldn't it be true to say that PitStop is the closest thing available to a native PDF editor?

 

[a-pap]

A good reason is to extract or pick-up some elements from an output PDF: it's often easier and safier to open the whole page in Illustrator and suppress all the not-needed elements keeping just a logo, than to open the page in Acrobat and select all the elements of the logo to edit them, with the risk to miss or forget some elements!

(as I said before, I often use this method to extract a vector logo from a PDF downloaded on internet: a newsletter, an internal report, an inscription form... everything that is easily and quickly downloadable and contains correct vector logos is usable... believe me, when a job has to be printed next day early morning, it's a good tip to get an (almost) original logo from a company, even when it's too late to ask somebody of this company to send you the logo, or when a stupid secretary has sent you only the JPEG and GIF crap files that he/she has in his/her PC for office jobs)

Why don't you use the tuch up object tool to do something like that?
I totally believe you don't need (anymore) to use Illustrator for editing pdf files .

 

[claude72]

Why don't you use the touch up object tool to do something like that?

Because the "touch up object tool" always opens vector objects in Illustrator:

• either it opens/edits the whole selected page of the PDF in Illustrator... in that case, it's no use to:
- open the PDF in Acrobat,
- choose the "touch up object tool",
- select the page,
- and click right to finally open the page in Illustrator!
... it's quicker to directly open the PDF in Illustrator.

• or it edits the selected objects in Illustrator... so, I have to select all the objects of the wanted logo, with the risk of missing some objects (especially in vectorized text), and having to re-do all the selection...
... it's quicker and safier to directly open the PDF in Illustrator, and suppress all the unneeded objects around the logo in Illustrator... and if I suppress something needed (by making a too wide selection), a simple "Apple Z" will cancel the mistake...

I totally believe you don't need (anymore) to use Illustrator for editing pdf files .

Yes, you're right, it's possible to extract a logo from a PDF without Illustrator: I can remove all the unneeded objects from the PDF using Acrobat with the PitStop tools, to keep only the logo, and then save my new PDF containing only the logo...

... but I'll finally get a PDF, thought I want an EPS file: sorry, but I prefer logos as EPS files than as PDF files:

- first, because I work with InDesign AND with XPress, and XPress is not so good with PDF,

- second, because I feel easier to re-open an EPS logo with Illustrator to modify it (to change for example CMYK colors to Pantone or to grayscales) than to have to do that job in Acrobat with PitStop,

- third, because PitStop is desperately slow... much slower than Illustrator!

- and fourth, because I'm a little bit "old school": I'm perhaps (or certainly) wrong, but in my mind the PDF format is more an output format than a working format for importing and editing... and I don't like to have to import PDF elements in my layouts.



For a logo-extraction, it's possible to do all the job with Acrobat and PitStop... but in MJNC case, do you really imagine filling the old basis with all the new stuff, new text, new photos, with PitStop???

(AFAIK, it would be possible with Neo...: a friend of mine using it said me that Neo is so powerful than it is almost possible to use it as a standalone DTP software, almost doing the same layout job than InDesign or XPress, but working directly in a PDF and using PDF as it's standard file format... almost... but the price is a little bit frightening )

 

[a-pap]

Because the "touch up object tool" always opens vector objects in Illustrator:

• either it opens/edits the whole selected page of the PDF in Illustrator... in that case, it's no use to:
- open the PDF in Acrobat,
- choose the "touch up object tool",
- select the page,
- and click right to finally open the page in Illustrator!
... it's quicker to directly open the PDF in Illustrator.

• or it edits the selected objects in Illustrator... so, I have to select all the objects of the wanted logo, with the risk of missing some objects (especially in vectorized text), and having to re-do all the selection...
... it's quicker and safier to directly open the PDF in Illustrator, and suppress all the unneeded objects around the logo in Illustrator... and if I suppress something needed (by making a too wide selection), a simple "Apple Z" will cancel the mistake...




Yes, you're right, it's possible to extract a logo from a PDF without Illustrator: I can remove all the unneeded objects from the PDF using Acrobat with the PitStop tools, to keep only the logo, and then save my new PDF containing only the logo...

... but I'll finally get a PDF, thought I want an EPS file: sorry, but I prefer logos as EPS files than as PDF files:

- first, because I work with InDesign AND with XPress, and XPress is not so good with PDF,

- second, because I feel easier to re-open an EPS logo with Illustrator to modify it (to change for example CMYK colors to Pantone or to grayscales) than to have to do that job in Acrobat with PitStop,

- third, because PitStop is desperately slow... much slower than Illustrator!

- and fourth, because I'm a little bit "old school": I'm perhaps (or certainly) wrong, but in my mind the PDF format is more an output format than a working format for importing and editing... and I don't like to have to import PDF elements in my layouts.



For a logo-extraction, it's possible to do all the job with Acrobat and PitStop... but in MJNC case, do you really imagine filling the old basis with all the new stuff, new text, new photos, with PitStop???

(AFAIK, it would be possible with Neo...: a friend of mine using it said me that Neo is so powerful than it is almost possible to use it as a standalone DTP software, almost doing the same layout job than InDesign or XPress, but working directly in a PDF and using PDF as it's standard file format... almost... but the price is a little bit frightening )

Hello claude 72.
i'm using the touchup object tool just for copy a logo or image from a pdf file to another pdf file.(prepress)
For creative use the trhuth is that its much more difficult to work with acrobat. But i'm wondering how often do we have to work with pdf files in the creative part of our job.
Personaly i feel more "safe" about the results, by editing pdf using acrobat and pitstop.

 

[claude72]

Hello a-pap

i'm using the touchup object tool just for copy a logo or image from a pdf file to another pdf file.(prepress)

Yes, it's also a possible use of the Touch-up tool...

... but as I said before, I'm more confident in erasing all the unneeded objects to keep only the logo that I need and then rename the PDF, rather than select all the needed objects and copy them in a new PDF (or in Illustrator): I have already experienced problems with forgetting some objects in the selection, seeing the mistake at the end of the job and having to redo all the job!!!

(It often happens to me with vectorized texts: french is a language with diacritic signs: é, è, ê, ë, etc., and it's easy to forget an accent in the selection!!!)

Or you need to select all an area including the wanted objects... but doing that you also copy all the garbage around the wanted objects, and finally you have to erase all this garbage...

For creative use the trhuth is that its much more difficult to work with acrobat. But i'm wondering how often do we have to work with pdf files in the creative part of our job.

Yes, normally it's rare... or it should be... but in fact I have to replace the JPEG logos by vector logos in almost each received jobs... so, searching the web for PDF containing logos, and extracting them to make clean EPS vector logos is a big part of my job!!!

Personaly i feel more "safe" about the results, by editing pdf using acrobat and pitstop.

Yes, but, again, it depends of the complexity of the editing job...

• for editing a PDF to fix some pre-press issues or to make little last minute corrections just before imaging, yes, I agree with you Acrobat + PitStop do the job...

• but to transform a PDF, for example extract a logo (and get an EPS file), extract a whole background, change the whole text for another language or another edition (imagine that you get the May PDF of a newspaper as a basis to make the June edition!!!), or other big re-working of a PDF, Acrobat + PitStop are not enough efficient and you have to use other methods or workarounds.

(reading beermonster beginning with: "agreed illy is not supposed to be a pdf editor...", and going on with "we do open pdf's in illy - BUT we are ultra careful (...)", I'm quite sure that in his job, he never opens a PDF in Illustrator just to change an overprint in knock-out on one object... but he opens a PDF in Illustrator only when he is really obliged, when he cannot get an Illustrator editable PDF and gets only an output PDF, and it's for heavier jobs, like changing the language of all the text of a packaging, or making the box of a new cherry cake by transforming the PDF of the strawberry cake box!!!)

 

[PDL]

PDF editing ?
Maybe you should look at EskoArtwork's Neo. Better yet, maybe you should try it for free. Here's the link so you may do so : Efficiency and productivity for editing and correction of multipage PDF files. Best of luck.

 

[Grnofslt]

MJNC,

We meet again.

A company that I recently worked would accept Acrobat files (and probably still does) as camera ready art but a particular service provider required all files submitted to them to be either Illustrator files, Freehand files, or .eps files.

This created all sorts of problems for us in the pre press department since the PDF files were created from many different programs, all of which have their particular quirks which appear during the convrsion process.

We would get missing font dialogues; the Illustrator only works within one color space warning; PDFs created from Quark files had serious spell check problems in that each individual letter was considered a complete word; RGB files converted to CMYK had to have the blacks changed to 100% for our output rather than the rich black percentages that would be created when changing the file CMYK from RGB; Learning that what is a stroke (in a file created from MS Word) isn't a stroke in Illustrator, but rather is a fill; The clipping paths generated that lock each object or group to the page size of the original document and which would have to be carefully deleted in order to change the colors and or manipulate size or just to make a correction that the customer requested.

We didn't have Pit Stop pro or any of the other PDF manipulation software. So from the little you have experienced, you can tell that is was always fun.

Converting all these files to Illustrator files is possible but will take work and thought. If you have a laser printer, and you print the PDF file and then scan the printout and place it into Ai as a template and typeset the file. This is one of the methods we used all the time. Though graphics had to be redrawn and were bothersome. One of my co workers used to create a jpg of a PDF file and place it as the template without doing the scan but the resolution was terrible.

If you received the color space warning (the document has RGB and CMYK and Illustrator can work only in one) you will need to check your blacks by first selecting some black object and then checking its color in the color panel. This is especially necessary if the job is to be one color only (black) because anything converted from RGB will give the CMYK version of RGB Black which will have a small percentage of cyan, magenta, and yellow besides K. And if you only need black, why output to 4 plates.

Now if this is going to be 4 color process, it's OK to leave the black like it is, because if there shouldn't be any trapping issues when you go to press. The place I worked didn't do process work, (we weren't set up for it nor were capable of doing process work) so all our blacks had to be 100% K.

The clipping paths really are most bothersome. If you had a PDF created from a Word document or a Quark file you had literally one clipping path for each stroke or object. And these had to be deleted while making sure that the clipping path wasn't hiding unwanted artwork. Time consuming to say the least and a place where one could mess up the conversion. When selecting an object and seeing the page border selected also, I would go to the layers panel and access the layers menu in the upper right corner of the layers panel and select locate object. This would take me to the object in the layers pallet, and usually the associated clipping path would be there also and also showing the little selected square. I would then delete that clipping path. Or just to get rid of all clipping paths right from the start i would just go down the layers pallet and select clipping paths and see if they were the page outline and delete them if they were. This could be a very time consuming process but the end result was that we were able to manipulate and make adjustments and corrections as required by the customer.

So many people out there believe that any old PDF file it is ready to go to press. Those who don't know that is. Our customers for the most part do not realize that if your PDf file is to genuinely be press ready it has to be created with certain standards incorporated. The management and Customer Service Reps where I worked went one step beyond that in that if it was electronically submitted artwork, it was camera ready. How many times we were sent a web graphic that might have been sized at 72 pixels by 72 pixels and they wanted it scaled up to be 10 inches by ten inches. Such fun our customers bring us. I'm gray and bald before my time!!

I probably didn't help much but as you can see I can surely empathize with you.

Bill