Pantone Plus question

[gordo]

I'd appreciate it if someone here could post the Lab values for the base primary colors for the Pantone Plus color series. My software is too old to include this information.

Thanks! Gordo

 

[gordo]

Does anyone have this info?
I'm just trying to see if they're inside or outside the gamut of the CMYK primaries and/or the standard Pantone base colors.

Gordo

 

[Al Ferrari]

Hi Gordon,

Starting with the CS6 suite, the Pantone / CMYK conversions are now Lab based, which has engendered quite a bit of discussion as indicated at this link:

Adobe Community Help - Search Community Help

I am only starting to digest this change, but will simply mention that the CMYK values for Pantones differ from the prior ones, depending on various settings.

Al

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Hi Gordo,

Pantone Plus Solid Coated Base 14 L*a*b* values:

Pantone Purple 47.5 68.9 -42.5
Pantone Violet 18.7 54.6 -69.5
Pantone Reflex Blue 14.9 31.8 -67.1
Pantone Process Blue 47.6 -33.4 -53.4
Pantone Green 57.7 -77.2 0.2
Pantone Yellow 89 -1.3 110.9
Pantone Warm Red 58.7 70.1 51.2
Pantone Rubine Red 43.8 79.3 12.7
Pantone Rhodamine Red 51.5 78.8 -13.9
012 Yellow 87.6 2.2 109.1
021 Orange 60.8 65.7 85.1
032 Red 55.3 72.1 43.5
072 Blue 17.5 42.9 -76
Pantone Black 17.1 1.3 2.5


Stephen Marsh

 

[gordo]

Thanks Stephen!

Hi Gordon,

Starting with the CS6 suite, the Pantone / CMYK conversions are now Lab based

@Al, I'm trying to understand a claim made by Kodak that they can reproduce 72-80% of the Pantone Plus library with their flexo solution using CMYK. I don't believe it. I know what % they can do of the Pantone library with offset, so, if the Pantone Plus base colors are at or greater than the Pantone base colors in terms of gamut then I think that confirms my thinking.

Best, gordo

 

[Deleted member 16349]

@Al, I'm trying to understand a claim made by Kodak that they can reproduce 72-80% of the Pantone Plus library with their flexo solution using CMYK. I don't believe it.

Gordon, can you link where that claim is stated? Many flexo presses are more than 4 units and maybe they are not clearly stating that other inks would be used.

A lot of flexo printing only uses spot colours which can increase the gamut.

If they are only talking about CMYK there can be an increase in gamut from offset due to inter unit drying. Therefore they would be dry trapping. This would increase gamut. So would running to higher densities.

I understand that claims in this industry are usually very factual so I am sure it is some kind of misunderstanding of what they said.

 

[gordo]

Gordon, can you link where that claim is stated? Many flexo presses are more than 4 units and maybe they are not clearly stating that other inks would be used.

A lot of flexo printing only uses spot colours which can increase the gamut.

If they are only talking about CMYK there can be an increase in gamut from offset due to inter unit drying. Therefore they would be dry trapping. This would increase gamut. So would running to higher densities.

I understand that claims in this industry are usually very factual so I am sure it is some kind of misunderstanding of what they said.

The claim is near the end of the "do more with four" seminar here: FlexoGlobal Home

The extra gamut they refer to in the title is due to the extra solid ink density (compared with conventional flexo) made possible by their digi capping of the plate. But AFAIK, the solids still aren't quite offset. The number pantone (not pantone plus) colors that are a deltaE of less than three with hybrid UV offset cmyk and Staccato screening is 50% so a claim of 72-80% of the Pantone plus library with flexo, IMHO, seems a bit of a stretch.

Best, gordo

 

[Deleted member 16349]

The claim is near the end of the "do more with four" seminar here: FlexoGlobal Home

The extra gamut they refer to in the title is due to the extra solid ink density (compared with conventional flexo) made possible by their digi capping of the plate. But AFAIK, the solids still aren't quite offset. The number pantone (not pantone plus) colors that are a deltaE of less than three with hybrid UV offset cmyk and Staccato screening is 50% so a claim of 72-80% of the Pantone plus library with flexo, IMHO, seems a bit of a stretch.

Best, gordo

Gordon, thanks for the link. I listened to the whole presentation and I have to say they were very professional. Much more than most presentations one gets in this industry.

Things I thought were of interest but in no particular order:

They did not fully describe the press so it is not clear if there were inter-unit drying that could affect over print gamut.

They were printing on clear poly substrate which I would think will affect measurement due to light getting under dots etc.

They are printing at higher densities than offset due to their new plate technology which has a textured surface. Seems like a good technology. Of course comparing the flexo gamut using this plate technology with offset is a bit misleading because offset can quite easily run higher densities by applying more ink and/or increasing ink strength.

Paul in the presentation only claimed 72% gamut coverage of Pantone but added that others claimed more. Paul's claim is only based on one test run so I don't know if one should take it too seriously. They admit that there is not an apples to apples comparison to other processes.

They did not comment on any issues with how values can be adjusted on press. Not so easy with flexo.

In the end, I am still a strong believer that in the future, offset will be a more consistent and predictable process than gravure and flexo and with lower waste etc. Even with the advances flexo has seen, I still think in general it has limitations.

 

[gordo]

I've checked the difference between the Pantone and Pantone Plus base primaries vs the GRACoL gamut that they say they are very close to and something is not right with their claims so I've contacted Kodak and hopefully they can clear up my lack of understanding.

best, gordo

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I've checked the difference between the Pantone and Pantone Plus base primaries vs the GRACoL gamut that they say they are very close to and something is not right with their claims so I've contacted Kodak and hopefully they can clear up my lack of understanding.

best, gordo

It will be interesting to hear what they say. Hope you can let us know.

I suspect you are right about not believing their claims.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

This topic thread was spawned by an earlier discussion:

http://printplanet.com/forums/prepress-workflow-discussion/26876-eskoartworks-equinox

On the density values of Kodak Flexcel NX plates with DigiCap NX Screening in the solid areas:

Kodak state: "with Flexcel NX Plates with DigiCap NX Screening applied. Users are reporting average density increases of 0.4 in cyan, magenta, and black, and 0.2 in yellow".

A different document with slightly more conservative values states:

Cyan - Standard Digital LAMs: 1.30 / Kodak Flexcel NX: 1.50
Magenta - Standard Digital LAMs: 1.25 / Kodak Flexcel NX: 1.45
Yellow - Standard Digital LAMs: 1.0 / Kodak Flexcel NX: 1.20
Black - Standard Digital LAMs: 1.40 / Kodak Flexcel NX: 1.70

http://graphics.kodak.com/AU/en/pro...xographic_system/default.htm?_requestid=34257

(Disclaimer: I work for the Australian distributor of the Kodak Flexcel NX solution)


Regards,

Stephen Marsh

 

[gordo]

This topic thread was spawned by an earlier discussion:

EskoArtworks, Equinox?

Actually that was coincidental.

I was on the Spotless development team and was its marketing manager so I was interested in the webinar and how Kodak would pitch a 4 color process for flexo. The gamut claims didn't sound realistic. They were more like those of a 6 color process than a 4 color one. You can increase gamut with flexo by increasing density (to a certain point) and digicapping, however I don't think that you can do so enough to make the flexo presswork running 150 lpi achieve a gamut almost as great as 6 color offset with 10 micron FM screening.

There's probably just an information disconnect between engineering and sales/marketing. I've reached out to the two presenters and hopefully they'll clear up the issue.

Since you work for the Australian distributor of the Kodak Flexcel NX solution, have you seen their webinar? Does the information presented align with the training that you've had?

best, gordo

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Actually that was coincidental.

Thanks Gordo, so much for my deductive skills!

Since you work for the Australian distributor of the Kodak Flexcel NX solution, have you seen their webinar? Does the information presented align with the training that you've had?

best, gordo

I'll get back to you when I am officially back at work, I am still on my break.


Stephen Marsh

 

[rich apollo]

Gordo, do they provide an ICC profile of the color space they're laying claim to? If you can provide me with an ICC profile, I can't give you 72-80%, but I CAN give an interesting visual comparison.

 

[gordo]

Gordo, do they provide an ICC profile of the color space they're laying claim to? If you can provide me with an ICC profile, I can't give you 72-80%, but I CAN give an interesting visual comparison.

I've asked them for two profiles - conventional flexo and flexcel. Haven't heard back yet.

best, gordo