PDF Embedded Fonts not Consistent

[Shivore]

We're having an issue with font substitution and re-flow with PDFs that have embedded fonts. Even on files created in-house with common fonts, sometimes when transferring a PDF exported with fonts embedded from InDesign CS3 from the Design computer to the controller PC for the Digital Printer the fonts get substituted when viewed on the Controller using Acrobat Professional 6 (yes... ancient version but it's what we have)

These files look fine on the controller computer when viewed using Acrobat Reader 8. Transferring to another PC that has Acrobat Professional 8 it also looks fine.

Going into File>Properties Fonts tab we can see that all fonts are either embedded or embedded sub-set. Yet still they get changed without any warning dialog or anything appearing.

It's happened twice now. The first time the font was changed, the second time it appeared to be the same font but the spacing was thrown way off.

Any ideas on what's happening and how to fix this?

 

[Greg_Firestone]

Hi Shivore,

A few questions -

1) What version of PDF are you creating from InDesign CS3?
2) How do you create it - direct PDF export or Print to PS?
3) What type of fonts are used in the document? TrueType, PS Fonts, OpenType, CID/Identity-H/Double Byte?
4) Do you have to use Acrobat Professional to Print or can you just print from Acrobat Reader? Or do you drop files directly into a hotfolder for the Digital Printer?

Regards,
Greg

 

[Shivore]

I actually won't be in the office again until tomorrow morning so I can only answer from memory, here's what I do know:

1) What version of PDF are you creating from InDesign CS3? We choose the option to make compatible with Acrobat 5 and later, Postscript level 2.

2) How do you create it - direct PDF export or Print to PS? Tried it both ways, but usually we do direct export.

4) Do you have to use Acrobat Professional to Print or can you just print from Acrobat Reader? Or do you drop files directly into a hotfolder for the Digital Printer? We use Acrobat Professional to print because we get inaccurate color using Reader for some reason.

 

[leonardr]

Acrobat NEVER substitutes a font for embedded fonts - ONLY when the font not-embedded. Any substitution is taking place on your printer/RIP...

 

[Shivore]

Yeah, that's what I used to think as well.


The jobs are using TrueType fonts. Both say (Embedded Subset) in the PDF document properties.

<edit to avoid double-post> Okay... this is now one of the most bizarre things I've seen and when it comes to computers, I've seen a lot.

Tried opening them up again on the problem computer so I could take some screenshots to send to someone else trying to help us here, and one file opened perfectly fine no problem when I know it was substituting before. The other file where the fonts weren't substituting but the spacing was messed up, it opened up fine at first until we maximized the window. Then where three areas were messed up before, now only two are. It's inconsistent! And it's not just a freaky display problem, it prints that way too.

 

[Dov Isaacs]

Acrobat NEVER substitutes a font for embedded fonts - ONLY when the font not-embedded. Any substitution is taking place on your printer/RIP...

And furthermore, no RIP conforming to either the PostScript or PDF specifications substitutes fonts for those embedded in your PostScript or PDF file. Certainly no RIP using Adobe PostScript or the Adobe PDF Print Engine technology does any such substitution.

What one must look at is the workflow between the generation of the PDF file and the RIPing of same. Want to mess up a PDF file really well? Open it up and save it from Illustrator. Other than for PDF files created by "save as" in Illustrator, Illustrator in the general case is not a lossless PDF editor. You also need to look at what other third party PDF workflow components are being used. It is amazing how many prepress operations have fairly recent RIPs, but prehistoric versions of PDF workflow tools.

- Dov

 

[gig0]

"Want to mess up a PDF file really well? Open it up and save it from Illustrator."


HAHA! That was funny!


I've seen quite a few anomalies when it comes to TT fonts. Most of the type related problems are due to half-ass font foundries. The problem font you're showing looks like Impact. Is it really the same Impact font from Monotype Corp., or some bastardized version? Just curious.

 

[leonardr]

Yeah, that's what I used to think as well.

As a member of the Acrobat engineering team, I can vouch for my statement with 110% certainty.

The jobs are using TrueType fonts. Both say (Embedded Subset) in the PDF document properties.

Great - PLEASE POST THE PDFs!

Without the actual document(s) in question and details on how the documents were produced and/or viewed and/or printed - your information is meaningless . As my colleaque Dov points out, 99.9% of all such problems can be attributed to improper workflows...

We WANT to help you - so please provide the files in question the workflow details...

Leonard Rosenthol
PDF Standards Architect
Adobe Systems

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

I have seen the kind of font errors as displayed in the screen dump. In all cases exporting to postscrript and then re-distilling have solved the problem. (Usually the PDFs are from a Microsoft Pubisher or a PDF writer)

Leonard, if there is a subset, but a character (even if a null character) is not found in the subset then is a substitute used?

 

[pcmodem]

Have you checked to see if "Use local fonts" is checked? If you have a bad font installed, Acrobat could be using that font to render the PDF on screen.

 

[disbellj]

Have you checked to see if "Use local fonts" is checked? If you have a bad font installed, Acrobat could be using that font to render the PDF on screen.

From my experience, even if "Use local fonts" is checked, Acrobat Professional will still use the embedded font if one is embedded or subset. This is true unless you've edited type in an area, then the installed font would have had to be used to edit the type, and so the installed font will be used for that type in that specific area when PDF is sent to rip. But if user does not set to embed that installed-but-not-embedded font in Acrobat, then it will not be embedded when the PDF is saved, so if the PDF is then dropped on a hotfolder to their rip, and not sent to printer by Acrobat print function, then rip may substitute font.

Don

 

[FinePrinter]

Messed up fonts

Messed up fonts

I have also had these same font issues when sending any files from INDCS3 and Quark7.0 when sending to posst script level 2 Brisque Impose. I solved the problem 2 ways. One way was to send to postscript level 3 Brisque and the other was to re save the PDF and import into Quark 6 picture box and resend to the Brisque PS Level 2. I think it is because we are sending a ps level 3 file to a PS Level 2 device and it doesn't always work well but I always find a way.

 

[dreibelt]

You could try outlining the fonts ( keeping an original if you intend to make direct changes to PDF text, although I doubt you'd want to do this with subsets). I know Pitstop Pro has some great features for outlining fonts.

 

[leonardr]

I have seen the kind of font errors as displayed in the screen dump. In all cases exporting to postscrript and then re-distilling have solved the problem. (Usually the PDFs are from a Microsoft Pubisher or a PDF writer)

Because you are RECREATING FROM SCRATCH the PDF...Distiller is free to (and will) reload fonts from your installed versions and replace the ones in the original document.

Leonard, if there is a subset, but a character (even if a null character) is not found in the subset then is a substitute used?

No.

 

[leonardr]

Have you checked to see if "Use local fonts" is checked? If you have a bad font installed, Acrobat could be using that font to render the PDF on screen.

Use Local Fonts ONLY applied to NON-EMBEDDED FONTS. It's also been removed from the UI of Acrobat/Reader 9 since it just confused people....

 

[pcmodem]

Use Local Fonts ONLY applied to NON-EMBEDDED FONTS. It's also been removed from the UI of Acrobat/Reader 9 since it just confused people....

But the option does exist in the preferences though.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Leonard thank you for your patience with us. I think you are doing something very important being a voice (and ears) for Adobe.

 

[suzyb1078]

We try to embed rather than embed subset fonts. It could be you have a corrupt font and so it appears to be embedding, but it isn't good and the older version of Acrobat is catching it because it doesn't have all the bells and whistles trying to fix the preview. I have seen funky things like this when switching versions. We had a customer view a PDF proof in a newer version than we had and they saw a different thing than we did. Anyway, you might consider outlining your fonts on the "good" computer using PitStop.