Press Comparisons

[Ravesh]

Hi

In the next 6 months I need to purchase an 8-Colour Perfector press. My preferences are either a KBA Rapida 106, Komori Lithrone or Heidelberg SpeedMaster.

I need to put them through a head to head comparison test. I currently have all three manufacturers presses on our factory floor but they are the older machines.

Some of the criteria that I would like to compare them are:

1. make ready times
2. speed of press in perfecting
3. cost of jacket required for impression and transfer cyclinder
4. cost of consumables
   • damper motor
   • register motor
   • Communication PLC
   • replacment computer
   • cost of callout labour charges during working hours and after hours
   
   These are just some of the items I'm considering.
   
   How would one suggest that I do a head to head comparison, or does one have any suggestions in purchasing decision analysis.
   
   Or if not, can users of the above mentioned presses commented on components/spare parts that are fairly regularly replaced or have to be reset/readjusted by a trained engineer often.
   
   For example, it seems that I need to fly down a KBA engineer to reset grippers every 9-12 months.
   
   Any advice will be much appreciated.
   
   Ravesh

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

In general my employer has been a long term customer of Heidelberg. The make solid machines that run a very long time (ex still running windmill presses for special applications). Their Speedmaster line has been around for many years and has constantly been improved year after year. Recently most of their new advancement have been put into the XL line such as inline spectrophotometer for color management which is not intended to be offered on the SM line. Seeing that they now offer the XL as a perfector this may be something to consider.

On occasion we have placed KBA presses for their ability to handle thick substrates mainly for packaging type applications. Our experience has been that some of the 3rd party accessories KBA uses have not been the most reliable. In the US they have experienced some employee turnover rumored to be around dissatisfied customers receiving service that was not meeting their expectations resulting in some lost sales opportunities.

We have recently evaluated Komori and been impressed with some of their automation and focus on reducing make ready time. If you’re doing short run work while other manufacturers may have the ability to run faster at the end of the day you may be able to get more work out do to efficiencies in make ready automation. If you plan on doing 95-100% perfecting work their stacked press may also be of some interest. Komori has been building a reputation for making an extremely reliable press that does not break down and when something does happen parts are priced reasonably. It is also very rare for a Komori to require the grippers to be replaced because of their design.

I have heard Heidelberg continues to be the #1 selling sheetfed offset in the USA but Komori has been catching up over the years while man roland is a distant 3rd followed by KBA. The best advice I can give is to test some actual jobs on each press and see what one performs the best for your market and workload.

 

[jbeniston]

If I were you Ravesh I would seriously consider Manroland. Why don't you call them and schedule a demonstration. You can send a job to them ftp and go and see them print it from scratch, from platemaking to printing.
I am assuming that you are in N. America.
If, as one of the other contributors sugests you don't want them to prestage anything, call them anyway.
You have nothing to lose and everything to gain, and, I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the technology.

 

[CKL]

If you are going to test in a Demo room do not supply the file prior to the test. Make them react as you would in a production environment. Heidelberg had some problems on their SM with the file I supplied.
Walk in with the disk.

Watch the adjustments they make, and how the machine reacts. Given enough time the big 3 can play tricks in the Demo room.

Once you have narrowed your press selection have them take you to the field. Watch other printers run the machine. Some will struggle some will not.

 

[dana]

I'm on the same page with jbeniston, look at Manroland I run a new R500 and it's sweet.

 

[seejay]

Hi there,

the process that we recently used to test a number of press manufacturers (Heidelberg, KBA, Komori, ManRoland) is as follows:

We selected 5 standard production jobs - 2 sections each, 4x4colour jobs, 1x5colour job. All were on different substrates - satin, gloss and recycled stock, SRa1 to B1 sheet size - which we supplied.
Each vendor was given 1 job in advance, the balance on the day of the test.
The idea was to replicate, as close as possible, a standard production environment to include set-up, make-readies and wash-ups.
The clock started ticking when the first job went on press, it stopped when the final sheet came off press for the final job.
Each vendor was left to decide on colour, all we did was observe and measure (makeready time, number of sheets before good copy, waste, press settings, alchol & fount, etc.).

The results were interesting and varied - from mind-blowing to mind-numbing!!

This was a very good starting point for us.

 

[Retroman]

RetroMan

RetroMan

Hello Ravish:

Take a serious look at the Komori Super Perfector. It runs fast and prints great.

It can be had with any amount of automation you wish for directly from Komori. It can also be upgraded using OEM systems such as LithoTel's ColorLinx scanning and ink key presetting products. These systems are direct plugins to the press and use the same X-Rite scanner that is normally supplied by Komori.

The durability, service and tech support for the press are beyond question.

As far as head to testing goes. Provide each manufacturer with a test file and a live job file. Have them submit samples and have them "blind evaluated" independently. It's worth the cost.

Good Luck

RetroMan

 

[Sierpe]

Hello Ravesh

If you are seriously looking for an independent perspective stay away from press manufacture’s salesman. Press trials are staged and most press manufacturers provide stunning showroom presentations.

Raise your questions to technical people and end users such as experienced press operators and demonstrators. Sometimes a good advise from an educated and experienced press operator can be far more interesting and practical to support your future decisions.

The universal criteria include the following areas:

1- Productivity: make/ready times and press speeds; these are important items considering the industry trends of shorter press runs. The press must equipped with a reliable fully automated pate changer, (hand free plate changer). The dampening system must be fast reacting and provide stability in long runs.

2- Quality control: integrated process control; if you are concern to keep in-house quality standard you must consider presses equipped with integrated systems that support easy to use quality control scanners.

3- Integration: information workflow; the press information workflow software management must support all the needs for a smooth operation such as: ink profiles, sheet formats, etc.

4- Maintenance: consumables; jackets, coaters, rollers, preventive maintenance costs, etc.

Everyone willing to move forward will experience during the transition endless challenges. From the operation stand point, the operators training is the key for a painless transition.

Good luck,

Jan

Jan Sierpe - LinkedIn

 

[jbeniston]

Hi Jan, How are you? Good reply, what are you doing these days

 

[arfamoe]

Ravesh, we just finished going through this exact exercise but for an 8 color 40" press not a perfector. We went to the big 4 manufacturers MAN, Komori, KBA and Heidelberg XL105. For our evaluation we took with us a Disc with a couple of jobs on it and had them make the plates right before the press trial, that way they couldnt pre stage everything like they do at a print show. The print forms consisted of everything from carton stock to lightweight paper and took us most of the day with each manufacturer. Next we asked for references of current users who we could visit and then we spoke to the Press Operators themselves as they live with these presses every day.
Final result was, if you are a Carton Printer and want a high tech work horse press KBA came out on top and was the most expensive. If you were looking for state of the art commecial press then Heidelberg came out on top, If yo uare loking for best value for money to do both carton and commercial then you cant do ant better than a Komori.

 

[Skidmark]

You should check out the MAN Roland presses. I had a HB and Komori, the MAN beats them both. Hands down.

 

[Nielsen]

Komori is the best 4+4/5+5 printingmachine.
Let a Komori printshop do 10 different jobs for you on time like normal produktion, then Komori is the winner. The dubbelsize perfectioncylinders in all of the perfecting unit and the delivery is a big advantage, and also the fullautomatic platechange. Komoris also print without alcohol. The KHS AI is also something to set down the "Make Ready" time. I recommend you too take a very good look at the LS Perfector ore the LS Super Perfector. LS means "Low Service" we joke about in Denmark ;-) And remember that the top speed of the machine not is importend, it is the average speed of the month and the sheets on the floor pr.hour you can earn your money on.

Nielsen

 

[Lithographer]

When looking at a press it is important to look at the press holistically and not focus on individual features. It is a combination of parts that make a whole therefore it is important to look at what each press has to offer in regards to the feeder, the units, perfecting, the delivery and the control centre. Further to this but secondary to the actual press look at what the manufacturer has to offer in the line of work flow because this is something that will inevitably become necessary later on.

All these features contribute to "up time" on the machine and "up time" results in press availability which results in production which results in profits.

Do yourself a favour and list all the main features in each part of the machine and do the comparisons, listing the benefits. e.g. Perfect Jacket and Transfer jacket Plus from Heidelberg, these jackets have the longest life span in the industry and have the longest running time before requiring cleaning from ink build up therefore you benefit froml ess down time, longer running times, and more consistent print quality.

If you had to do the comparisons I am sure that you will find without a doubt that the Heidelberg will win hands down.

 

[botas]

salesman....graduated in technical field

salesman....graduated in technical field

Ravesh reading through all the replies the most appropiate one is the reply from Jan it's not biased and it's to the point just that i want to add a few points.

All major press manufactures make good machines they chase each other when it comes to technology some are leaders others are followers, the gap is always changing.

When purchasing a press look at the techical support you can get from the various suppliers and if they do not have support in your region and you have 3 press suppliers on your floor, then ask yourself the following " when i need spares which is the one that has the better stock holding or the one that can get the spares the quickest to me".
All presses have breakdowns, when the press is down this is when one starts to add up all the cost, then the make does not make any difference it's how quick you can get the press going.

The other issue is productivity and this is such a grey area every manufacture claims to have the most productive machine, the only way to find this out is to look at second hand press plus minus 4-5 years "same size from different manufactures" compare the impressions and the one with the most impressions is the more productive press, the proof is in the impression counter.

 

[Lithographer]

I would agree with Botas on the productivity aspect. If you do the comparisons in regards to impression counts the Heidelbergs generally have much higher impression counts. This applies to presses in the same shops.

Again, the feeders on the Heidelbergs are far more advanced than the other suppliers. That is where all jobs start. If you cant set that up quickly and it doesnt run consitently and efficiently then forget about high productivity.

 

[Albert Noel]

you're going to get alot of subjective opinions. if a guy runs Heidelberg he's going to recommend it, if a guy runs komori, he's going to tell you to try it, same for Roland and same for kba. .

i'll give you my opinion as well. i personally like man roland. my personal choice comes from operating both a Heidelberg and a roland and finding that the roland was just easier to operate in general. maintenance is easy, the dampening system is easy to use and at 65,000,000+ impressions, nothing major has happened to it (your usual wear and tear and the occasional breakdown) but nothing major.

regardless of which you choose, you will get a great machine from the major manufacturers. all the modern offerings are pretty well matched. if you have high standards of maintenance and operating conditions they will ALL work well for you.

and because it hasn't been mentioned, Mitsubishi also has a good 8 colour perfector.

but, if you are happy with the brands you already have on hand then...

 

[Sfdp2300]

The other issue is productivity and this is such a grey area every manufacture claims to have the most productive machine, the only way to find this out is to look at second hand press plus minus 4-5 years "same size from different manufactures" compare the impressions and the one with the most impressions is the more productive press, the proof is in the impression counter.

We have 2 Heidelbergs

1987 102 sp with 800 million + impressions
1989 102F+L with 450 million + impressions
Makeready times and run speeds are still compare able to each other

But I have ran a 1940 something 2 color Harris press with Who the H#%L knows how many impressions it had. Ran this one for a little "Mom and Pop" shop.(It was fun time)

If that gives you any idea

 

[loopyg66]

press comparisons

press comparisons

everyone makes a good press and they all can print a good dot. it comes down to the options you're looking for what fits your needs. you said you're looking for a long perfector. I would look hard at a manroland. if you do your homework, you'll see that everyone is copying their technologies, double/double diameter, transferter transfer system, 7 0'clock cylinder geometry, vacuum feedboard and airtracks thoughout the press. they have been using this technology since 1992. what's interesting is that both heidelburg and kba are all copying these features but are advertising it as if it's brand new and that they had just thought of it.

I have ran komoris, heidelburgs and manrolands and the rolands are the easiest and most operator friendly presses. the rolands are now offering the direct dirve machines that will change plates, wash blankets and impressions cylinders all at the same time, on all units!! how much makeready time will that will that save?! no pre-bending of plates like the rest of the manufacturers, too. there's a company in europe somewhere that is saying they ran 169 jobs in 24 hours, on a direct drive long perfector.

back to press testing........ go to each manufacturer with your files in hand, and ship stock to each one as well (yes, this can be expensive, but will give the best results). tell them to leave the stock wrapped until you arrive. this will eliminate any pre-running of stock and the jobs. this will give you the most accurate results based upon a production atmosphere. how many shops get to pre-run thier stock before they run their jobs?
heidelburg is the best at smoke and mirrors. they rehearse everything from what they are going to say to you from the time you walk in the door, 'til the time you leave. anytime you take them out of their comfort zone, that is when you'll really see what their machines are capable of.......also their operators. this goes for all of them.

I've worked for 2 different manufacturers in the past, and following the guidelines above will give you the information you need......without smoke and mirrors. they all do it, some are just better than others.

 

[PSchw]

Press test

Press test

Most important is what you are using the press for. All 4 make good presses some are better on paper some are better on board. Service and parts are important make sure you have good "independent" service companies who can service the equipment besides the manufacturer. Used presses always a attractive alternative you can see it run you can test and you know what you getting. Now presses in demo rooms are different then the press you getting all manufacturer prepare there press I know I worked for one for 25 years in this area.
if you buy use make sure you gone get a good dealer with service so you have already doubled your service possibilities. We are an independent service company and work on all the presses but all we do is presses and all will work it is your preference more so then the capability of the equipment.

 

[mark haworth]

some suggestions:

some suggestions:

Hi

In the next 6 months I need to purchase an 8-Colour Perfector press. My preferences are either a KBA Rapida 106, Komori Lithrone or Heidelberg SpeedMaster.

I need to put them through a head to head comparison test. I currently have all three manufacturers presses on our factory floor but they are the older machines.

Some of the criteria that I would like to compare them are:

1. make ready times
2. speed of press in perfecting
3. cost of jacket required for impression and transfer cyclinder
4. cost of consumables
   • damper motor
   • register motor
   • Communication PLC
   • replacment computer
   • cost of callout labour charges during working hours and after hours
   
   These are just some of the items I'm considering.
   
   How would one suggest that I do a head to head comparison, or does one have any suggestions in purchasing decision analysis.
   
   Or if not, can users of the above mentioned presses commented on components/spare parts that are fairly regularly replaced or have to be reset/readjusted by a trained engineer often.
   
   For example, it seems that I need to fly down a KBA engineer to reset grippers every 9-12 months.
   
   Any advice will be much appreciated.
   
   Ravesh

1. 
   
   Ravesh, you have laid out a very logical process for your decision and have received some good feed back. I would add a few thoughts. As for the three manufacturers you listed there are some similarities and some differences. It was recently announced that KBA will now build perfectors using jacketed impression cylinders like everyone else, this is an admission that they are necessary for top quality. So to your point about cost that is a mute point. Heid as you know has promoted the older design SM 102P models from 1975 when first introduced. This design has been eclipsed now by the long accepted double diammeter transfer systems used by others. Should you go with Heid you would want to consider only now the new XL model perf of which there are only a few built so far in the world. This may take time to mature. If you have issues with gripper adjustments then you should understand that this is one area which is vastly different between manufacturers. Komori for example uses only carbide grippers and diamond pads cam opened and cam closed with torsion bars this virtually eliminates gripper adjustments. Ask users and they will confirm. I certainly would suggest that you test and going to the manufacturers demo room is not a problem as the presses there are indeed just like the one you would buy, they are just run by usually top operators and adjusted well. bring in your material and let them have at it. NO pre running. Your interest in makeready times, speed, quality and waste will all be there for you to see. Keep in mind that Komori does have the reputation for less service and years of hard sustainable operation which is why they have such a huge repeat buyer base, this speaks volumns about printers ability to "make money" with the press. In the end you should place high value on the company and relationship you have with them, at your plant etc. You will have a very good experience if you believe, trust and can work with your press vendor for years to come. Once you purchase you should see them a lot more and you are now part of the family sort to speak, they are your business partner. Good luck.