Printing Evolution - Thirty Years Past to Present

[Deleted member 16349]

I believe in the value of PEOPLE.

Top photo, 4 men 1 car.
Bottom photo countless cars, "0" people.

We have to eat to live. How do we feed ourselves, put clothes on our backs and provide shelter to live?

We will become animals, that what happens.

No answer Gordo, sorry. Shameful.

D Ink Man

You can learn something new and useful. That is what a lot of people do. Expecting to always do the same skill and get paid for it by some company, when that skill is not needed is kind of like begging for money. Income for little value. That is shameful.

 

[gordo]

I believe in the value of PEOPLE.

Top photo, 4 men 1 car.
Bottom photo countless cars, "0" people.

We have to eat to live. How do we feed ourselves, put clothes on our backs and provide shelter to live?

We will become animals, that what happens.

No answer Gordo, sorry. Shameful.

D Ink Man

You can believe in the value of people. But a business is concerned with profits and the effective use of resources to achieve profitability.
It's a cold hard world. Your having to eat to live, feed yourself, put clothes on your back or provide shelter to live is not the primary concern of a printing company or any employer for that matter. It's your concern as an individual. That is your responsibility. There are countless trades that have disappeared because their time had ended. That's the system. Survival of the fittest. If you no longer fit - you no longer survive.

 

[D Ink Man]

The entire 'big picture' of what was stated in reference to the survival of humanity was missed here in reply, Mr. P.

You have to outreach your thinking to the ramification impact that are there. They are shadowed, hidden and latent for some with shallow vision. Or perhaps the same ones who cannot envision a decline are too selfish and don't care about their grandchildren or their successors.

For the ones like myself who care about the future of mankind, even long after I'm gone, it becomes much easier to see the potential for something negative such as a decline. It is already happening today in our society.

All you have to do is look at events that have happened in your life on earth, study history before that time and the clarity becomes evident for the potential for degradation.

We must remain optimistic and be able to adapt, but there is only so much adaptation one can do with the momentum and speed of change that we all are in right now.

I am not getting slower, I am becoming wiser because I have the experience of life. And that experience grows each day as I continue to learn and become more sensitized. Think!

May God bless us all.

D Ink Man

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello Gentlemen and fellow Lithographers (the few that remain!)


Shame !!!


"There needs to be significant energy directed at re-skilling those whose jobs will be replaced by robots. Here, there are critical lessons from the the past.

The de-industrialisation of the 1980s saw thousands of people lose their manufacturing jobs, effectively shunting them on to a human scrapheap, never to work again,

with devastating consequences for themselves their families and their communties. "


Regards, Alois

 

[D Ink Man]

You can learn something new and useful. That is what a lot of people do. Expecting to always do the same skill and get paid for it by some company, when that skill is not needed is kind of like begging for money. Income for little value. That is shameful.

Quite peculiar that I do not have to beg for money. Quite the 180 degree opposite. Because of the skill set loss in my particular, now specialized trade, I am worth more than I have ever been. I have no competition for my position because no one has my experience and knowledge to do what I do. How do you like that?

Now I will make a comparison so you can best understand what I have just stated. Back in the 1700's and 1800's there were plenty of Blacksmiths available, because the need for them were immense. There were lots of horses that needed shoes. There were plenty of Blacksmiths. Moving forward to the 1900's and Y2K there was much less of a need for the Blacksmith, reasons obvious.

However, guess what? There are still horses that need to be shoed. Thoroughbred horses, quarter horses, the Budweiser Clydesdales, military and police equines, show horses and well, I could go on. So although the need for the number of Blacksmiths has diminished, the skill set is still very much needed to people who own and care for horses. This fact has only made the Blacksmith profession more lucrative because the need for a very PROFESSIONAL one is there. With that said, the worth of the ones who are Blacksmiths has risen.

Now step back Erik and Gordon and think about that for a while to see what I have written here makes absolute perfect sense. I think you may have the intelligence to comprehend this and learn.

D Ink Man

 

[Danny Whitehead]

The purpose of craft isn't craft for craft’s sake. It isn't to provide employment. It's to provide a product or service that we need, and continually improving the way we achieve that efficiently and to a high standard is craftsmanship in itself. If you're good at it, then you'll find plenty of tasks that still require human judgement to fill the time you saved by automating the ones that don't. Protecting the methods you're familiar with from new methods, isn't good craftsmanship.

 

[MailGuru]

However, guess what? There are still horses that need to be shoed. Thoroughbred horses, quarter horses, the Budweiser Clydesdales, military and police equines, show horses and well, I could go on. So although the need for the number of Blacksmiths has diminished, the skill set is still very much needed to people who own and care for horses. This fact has only made the Blacksmith profession more lucrative because the need for a very PROFESSIONAL one is there. With that said, the worth of the ones who are Blacksmiths has risen.

I'll chime in here. I agree with D, but, I'll give you an even better example of how "craftsmanship" is still a very sought-after commodity, only 180 degrees in the other direction.

Back in the 70's a computer programmer was a very hot commodity. There weren't very many of us around. A good programmer and systems design person could virtually "write their own ticket" as far as compensation goes. Especially one that could design and code much needed applications (a sort of "craftsmanship"). However, we all operated under an ominous "black cloud" of the future. You see, the word on the street was that very soon, there would be no need for programmers, as, computers would eventually be able to program themselves. Well, fast forward 40 years or so, and, you will see that programmers are not only flourishing, but, their numbers are much greater now than back in the 70's, and, that a good one, who takes pride in their work (much like the craftsmanship of a good press operator) can still write their own ticket. The moral of the story? Regardless of how advanced technology becomes, even with artificial intelligence and the IoT (Internet of Things - machines talking with machines) there will always be a need for a human craftsman to design and direct what those computers need to do.

 

[arossetti]

Quite peculiar that I do not have to beg for money. Quite the 180 degree opposite. Because of the skill set loss in my particular, now specialized trade, I am worth more than I have ever been. I have no competition for my position because no one has my experience and knowledge to do what I do. How do you like that?

Now I will make a comparison so you can best understand what I have just stated. Back in the 1700's and 1800's there were plenty of Blacksmiths available, because the need for them were immense. There were lots of horses that needed shoes. There were plenty of Blacksmiths. Moving forward to the 1900's and Y2K there was much less of a need for the Blacksmith, reasons obvious.

However, guess what? There are still horses that need to be shoed. Thoroughbred horses, quarter horses, the Budweiser Clydesdales, military and police equines, show horses and well, I could go on. So although the need for the number of Blacksmiths has diminished, the skill set is still very much needed to people who own and care for horses. This fact has only made the Blacksmith profession more lucrative because the need for a very PROFESSIONAL one is there. With that said, the worth of the ones who are Blacksmiths has risen.

Now step back Erik and Gordon and think about that for a while to see what I have written here makes absolute perfect sense. I think you may have the intelligence to comprehend this and learn.

D Ink Man

If we use your blacksmith analogy we are talking about two different parts of the printing industry. Gordo/Erik are talking about where 99% of the printed sheets will be printed and you are talking about the 1% specialty case. They are saying stop being a blacksmith and learn how to sell car tires and you are saying keep being a blacksmith because even though there will be a 1,000 cars in your town tomorrow we will still have 1 show pony that will need shoes.

 

[MailGuru]

On the other hand, I also agree with technological advancements (Erik & Gordo's arguments).

It might interest you that IBM's original motto (back in the 70's) was: "People should Think, Machines should do the work". That motto was later shortened to just the word "Think"

 

[dabob]

True, but you need to deal with the real:

Craftsmen assembling a car in the 30s:

Craftbots assembling a car now:

There are no craftpersons to learn new skills.

This is the direction of commercial print manufacturing. It already exists in home desktop inkjet printers. It is happening - perhaps not yet perfectly - with commercial digital presses. It will come to other press technologies.

If you believe that the value of craft in printing is in producing printed materials, IMHO, you are riding the wrong horse. The value of craft is in the service aspect of printing - what I meant by "craftiness".

Gordo, I could have used either of your photos to make my point . . . I agree that there is a place for production, i.e.newspapers (the few that are left) and mass produced cars (Toyotas, Kias, Fords/Cheverolet (not counting the Ford GT or the high end Corvettes), but then lets take a look at McLarens, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Pagani, Koenigsegg . . . now while they use robots in some of their assembly the end product is finished by exceptional craftsmem (and craftswomen)

follow this link to see what craftspeople can do today and have in the past . . . using the finest technology and the best craftspeople in their industry:

http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/0...e/pagani-zonda

 

[gordo]

I think that there are a couple of things being muddled in this thread.

Craft is a separate notion from craftsman.

Craft is the specialized knowledge and experience set that allows one to resolve/manage a chaotic or non-deterministic system (it's what a baseball batter uses to (sometimes) hit the ball. That is what is being replaced in the print trade because printing is a non-chaotic deterministic activity (despite appearances) (deterministic meaning you get an expected result based on what is input). The craft of color printing has been replaced by software and automation in your desktop printer. The craft is being/has been replaced by software, automation, and closed loop systems on digital presses. The craft will be eliminated in the same way on offset, flexo, and other printing systems. If your job security depends on printing craft knowledge then you will be replaced - it's just a matter of time.

A craftsman (crafter, craftsperson) is an individual who uses specialized knowledge and experience to produce an artefact when it is not economical or appropriate to use software and automation to produce the artefact. Tom Paine in my earlier post is an example of that.

Craft has no place in a deterministic process like printing - other than in sales and management that is. We suffer it now because the industry is just at the beginning of its transformation.

Craftsmen will always be required in some form the print business. However, they will only be of value for perhaps 1% of printed materials.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Gentlemen and the last few remaining Lithographers ( not Craftsmen BUT skilled technicians printing by the Lithographic Proccess)


1) A Deterministic system is a system in which no "Randomness" is involved.

2) There are too many "Input Variables" in lithographic printing for it to be classed as a Deterministic System.


Regards, Alois

 

[arossetti]

Wonder how many hands touch a Vista Print order from start to finish?

 

[gordo]

Gentlemen and the last few remaining Lithographers ( not Craftsmen BUT skilled technicians printing by the Lithographic Proccess)


1) A Deterministic system is a system in which no "Randomness" is involved.

2) There are too many "Input Variables" in lithographic printing for it to be classed as a Deterministic System.


Regards, Alois

That's what I thought before I started working with engineers at Creo.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Gentlemen and the last few remaining Lithographers ( not Craftsmen BUT skilled technicians printing by the Lithographic Proccess)


1) A Deterministic system is a system in which no "Randomness" is involved.

2) There are too many "Input Variables" in lithographic printing for it to be classed as a Deterministic System.


Regards, Alois

Duh. For over a hundred years there has been no control over the ink feed variable in lithographic printing. Some people with craft skills can't seem to understand this. They can't be taught and they can't learn. The only way they can understand is if it is demonstrated but they don't want it to be demonstrated. Duh.

 

[D Ink Man]

Duh. For over a hundred years there has been no control over the ink feed variable in lithographic printing. Some people with craft skills can't seem to understand this. They can't be taught and they can't learn. The only way they can understand is if it is demonstrated but they don't want it to be demonstrated. Duh.

D Ink Man controls it, and it makes for most beautiful lithographing.

D

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

You guys are really going ham over this conversation.

 

[D Ink Man]

You guys are really going ham over this conversation.

You are invited to pig out too!

 

[Schnitzel]

Believing in absolutes and nostalgia prevents you from adapting to a changing universe. Everything ends - "this too shall pass", as they say, and conservatism in this case can be dangerous - you become unprepared for surprises. In some cases you are left as an expert or specialist in some area that is changing, but that just concentrates higher energy at the hands of less people. Surely it does not benefit the entire industry as a whole. When everyone is an expert, nobody is.
No technological advancement in history has ever reverted back to "the good old days". Sure, there are still horses around, but you will never change all the cars back to carriages. Tying to do so is tilting at windmills.

Humans obey the same basic rule as all other organisms on earth: invest less energy, receive more outcome. If you find a method or process that enables you to spend less money (energy), and get the same outcome or better, that process will replace the previous one. This behavior is so ingrained in your genetic makeup you will never stamp it out. You wrote, "The choice to put competitive activity in a price first mode is a fatal mistake". I disagree - it is aiming at basic human behavior, and it works.

If you truly care about your grandchildren, teach them how to adapt to the rapidly changing world around them.

 

[Macmann]

Boys, boys or should I say geezers? I've been following this salty thread and everyone seems to be senior members. That is the real problem we are facing (yes, I'm a fossil as well). We can't get any young bucks who want to do this for a living. I'm afraid much of this knowledge will be lost as we fade into the sunset. It seems everyone just wants to push the green button and have the finished product burp out the back of the machine. Automation is sweeping through the industry-most everything is templates and hot folders these days. Management appears to be thrilled at this development-just insert an unskilled worker and pay them diddly, assuming they can pass a drug test. Sad state of affairs for this trade that we love. Oh well, gotta go- I think I see someone walking on my lawn.