Problems with ecomaxx-t dig plates

[wilson]

We have processless plates that are ecomaxx-t dig therm plates..we just got this system two weeks ago, the tests that we did went great. We have two heidelbergs 4/color mov with alcolor damp, (which is alcohol free) and a two color speedmaster with compacts. Here's the problem!
1. The mov runs mostly 4/color when starting out i have no problems with the print quality, as the run goes on i will start losing image in the red unit
on solids. You can call it blinding but it looks to, i dont know how to say it.
I guess mushy on the plate.

2. Both presses are losing fine screen dots in the black if it is printing just that color.

3. Sometimes not all the time i have problems rolling up with dampeners getting rid of all the emulsion off plate. But not to bad.

There is more issues but these are the worst. Of course when i called thech he is telling me it is calcium in the rollers, and we are using the wrong roller wash and, the wrong ink. Needless to say we are using all of their brand on the presses. Plus using the ink that they recommended.

So is there anybody out there who has a solution to these issues. I would like to hear from pressman first hand if poss. Please,please salesman out there we are not going to buy a new system but your comment on solving the problem would be appreciated.

Thanks
mike

 

[PantherMac]

Hi Mike,

We just started using the Fuji plate a few weeks back, because Kodak couldn't deliver Heidelberg40" plates in a timely manner - man, I wish they'd screwed up like this years ago!
So far we've been very happy w/ the plates, they perform exactly like the TD's from Kodak, and only cost 2/3rds as much!!!!
That being said.. The problems you're having sound pretty severe!
Losing fine detail dots sounds to me like an exposure problem? Do solids plug up, too? If not, it could be something w/ the press beating up the emulsion. You say you're having the dampners taking all of the emulsion off the plate, or just having trouble cleaning them out?
If you're having problems specific to a particular unit, I would concentrate on that unit. The plates are all the same (same box, right?) shot the same (same imager, right?), hung the same (head pressman, right?).. so the fact that you're experiencing a difference in Magenta tells me there's something unique to that unit. Check your chemistry?
Slow development on press tells me it's a chemistry problem (unless you've got an old box of plates). If it won't develop at all (try a soft cloth and some windex), I'd suggest a laser/exposure problem.

Either way, if it's a new(er) unit, you've got yourself a VENDOR PROBLEM!!!!
("Get your ass in here and fix this or I call Kodak!!!" - Woiks every time!)


- Mac

P.S. I'm a Prep Monkey, so take my advice w/ a grain of salt. LOL!

 

[Prepper]

Plate clean out

Plate clean out

We have been on the Fuji for about 3 months now. Heidelberg 72sp with alcolor also, can't control the pre-damp revolutions at all for this older press, so they tell me. We also have problems getting the plates to clean out completely but doesn't seem to be any certain unit on any given startup. I've heard of people spraying them before rollup, or wetting them by wiping before rollup on similar presses. We also switched solutions, inks, etc. Apparently a lot of factors can affect cleanout. We had 3 different techs in here with 3 different ways or ideas of how to do it. Too much water emulsion goes into fount, too little water it goes into ink, just right it comes off on paper. We also did the calcium washes.

I'm also a preps monkey so for what its worth! The biggest problem it causes me is when the plates don't clean out quite enough, that color prints too heavy, I have NO way to read the plates to prove whether the plates are right or not. Example, yesterday back of sheet matches proof, front of sheet way too red, runs magenta 30 points low to compensate, no way for me to prove to anyone here that plate was okay or not. As far as running they seem to do well, I would agree if dots are wearing or softening sounds like an exposure problem?

Good luck

 

[Arthaven]

wilson, that's very interesting. We are having that same issue but with our Kodak plates. Hmmmmm?

 

[wilson]

Pepper, Just a recap on whats going on with these plates. I ajusted the crome roller to the water
Form with a greater stripe 1/4 max. What a world of difference. The start up is alot cleaner and, so
far is has been running great. Arthaven you may want to try this also if you have alcolor or similar.
The other press we have is a 40 in heid speedmaster with compacts i had to take the stripe of the form down to min. The plate runs drier and has been working gooooood also. Lets see what happens in a month. Thanks to everyone with the helpful suggestions.

MIKE

 

[old printerman]

We are having the same problems with pms colours, you have to hand develop the plates off the press which defeats the object.This will cure the problem.
tried many founts but you are not the only one with this problem.
we are changing to agfa

 

[hansman]

Wilson
Have you guys figured out what is going on?
We too had the Fuji Ecomax plates drop out the magenta....
the fuji techs came in as well as the ink tech first they blamed the water (PH) then they blamed the calcium in the paper then the ink etc.
Just for giggles we pulled the mag plate and put a Kodak on & what do you know the problem went away.
At this point the Fuji tech took a Kodak plate and sent it to the lab.
Stay tuned!

 

[RGPW17100]

Magenta is usually the first unit to show problems whether it is bad rollers, chemistry or the fountain solution. Normally it is a toning or banding problem. We used the Fuji Pro T plate which is what they were originally called and the only way to clean them up on press was to pre wash them with an eco friendly citrus type of press wash. Even then the coating contaminated the yellow ink so it looked gray after 3 plate changes. Your dots falling off could also be that you do not have the correct laser settings. Also a problem from a plate that has no image when it is processed. When fuji was out trying to set up a linear plate they could not because their plate reader would not read the image because it was too light. They had to use known good results from similar CTPs which is not accurate enough due to laser age and intensities. I dont know the workings of a CTP but if you could increase your dot gain by a few percent then your start up would be hot but then it should settle down. Seems like a waste of paper cause then you might need a thousand sheets for set up instead of a couple hundred.

 

[Prepper]

Update

Update

We are now processing these plates thru a "rinse, gum" unit and that has eliminated our startup problems at press, still have occasional issue of problems when stopping and starting back up having lines across the plate, and our pressman has no or little luck at being able to clean it up and get it printing right again, usually end up re-making the plate. It does seem though that if they use the white cleaner it works okay.

We also experienced losing the highlight dots up to about 25% but ours has been on the cyan unit and only when they are developed on press. Haven't had this problem once with the ones we develop before press. Fountain solution isn't a factor because the Cyan and Black units share solution and we haven't had that problem with the Black.

I do like them being gummed and not having to keep up with when I need to make plates for the presses as much, only thing lacking is being able to read them.

Keep us posted with your experiences, it helps everyone in the long run.

 

[Kid Leo]

Check conductivity

Check conductivity

We have been having the same problems. Starts with the Magenta and then Cyan and eventually get to the Yellow and black. The conclusion we reached is that it was a combination of high conductivity, ink and paper.

We originally thought is was paper related, which it is in a way. We had a job that ran on a coated sheet and the plates kept blinding in about 500 sheets. Hot water will usually bring back the plate but only temporarily. We ended up getting different paper and the job ran without any problems. On the next job we ran that was similar, at the end of the run, we put some of the offending stock in and within ONLY 5 SHEETS the image started to go. Sorry, but I can't remember the brand of paper.

We eventually solved the issue by looking at the conductivity of the fountain solution. What we found was that the conductivity was rising greatly and that we needed to change the fountain solution more often. The pressmen were not changing out the water often enough. They would go weeks without draining it. We now drain it out weekly. Contaminants are building up in the water system and the only way to get rid of them is draining.

 

[SteveAgfa]

Hi Prepper...

Glad to hear that you are making progress on the productivity front.

Just curious, you mentioned that you are using a "rinse, gum" unit.
Are you indeed using water and gum, or just the gum?

Perhaps you are aware, our Azura TS is designed to clean-out
off-press in a simple gum unit (no water). WRT "readability" I've
attached an example of the image contrast Azura TS users enjoy.

I'd also be interested to hear (read) about Old PrinterMan's transition to
Azura.

Regards,

 

[dpoul34]

I'm using 40" Ecomax plates and they are the absolute worst plates I have ever used. My conventional infrared plates/film development from the past was much better. First of all, they won't roll up on press. I have to wash the plates by hand after the CTP burning with a special chemical that removes the coating. Also, on re-runs, plates NEVER roll up from gum used (FN-6 as per Fuji rep). After inking the press I have literally put jelly tack reducer on the rollers in order for the image to come back.

All I'm printing is line work and thank God I'm not printing process work. I would have been way better off with a filmsetter and making my plates the old fashioned way.

 

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

Never used eco-maxx, but sounds a lot like the pro-t, only plate I have ever seen blinding on. Some stocks it would come on in 100 sheets and you would have no image at all by 20 sheets. I have seen enough Fuji sales people to know they are taught to go into an account say how bullet proof everything is and say X, Y, and Z in your area are running them no problem. Plate tech are taught that if you have a problem "wow that is odd I have never had this problem before, must be your chemistry"

 

[wilson]

I know it has been awhile since I posted in this thread, sorry to all for not getting back and thank you to all that gave advice... either on this thread or personal e-mail.. Just a recap on what is going on. I thought I would not like the system but as it turns out there is more good than bad. I learned a lot with this system. First of all if upper Mgt.is not breathing down your throat you really need patience,it does take time to figure things out. The blinding issue that I was having in the magenta unit is no longer a problem,
I figured out that with this system the more ink you have on the sheet the better. I run (van-son inks), at the time I was using van-son XS which is extra strengths changed it to regular VS series just on the Mag and Cyan this helped out a lot. Very rarely I get blinding problems, if I do get it I hit the plate with (alch) sub and off I go. I do this on the second pull not the first it usually comes out of it after first pull. You do have to run stripes thicker on all forms including water form to the plate. When getting this system it has been a challenge very frustrating at times, and takes time. That where the patience comes in. The weirdest thing I experienced and I'm not kidding on this, you will have to change your rollers, especially your forms, but it seems like on the water form the older it gets the more control you have on ink and water balance, (Go figure). There is a lot more that I did but what I stated here on this thread is most important. Again I want to say Thank you to all for your sug. and E-mails I do like this system.
Mike