Problems with Kodak Thermal Direct Plates

yariv

Member
hi all
i am a new member to this forum
recently we are having problems with the kodak thermal direct plates
the results of these problems are scumming and dirty printing
we have noticed that when you print with plates that the expiration date is more then 6 month there is no problem
if we use plates with expirtaion dates less then 4 months' we have a lot of printing problems
the plates do not developed well and there is scumm on the plate or there is atone on the printed pasper
have someone notice such a problem?
 
Hi, is this processless ctp plate?
We are using Electra XD. impression is not so good. about 50,000 only. but they claim upto 500,000. how can we reach the best run length? Or which thermal plate can give the best run length in newspaper?
 
thermal direct

thermal direct

this kind of plates are not for newsprint
they are expeted to run for 100000 impressinos
but can hold up to 30000 on ordinary printing
 
I've seen fogging/scumming on plates that have been exposed to light, but not due to age (then again, I've never checked the exp. date on my plates?)
Been using the TD's for almost 2 years now, very happy w/ them in general. I've been able to image and store them for up to a month, too (45 days once!). Those plates processed a little longer on press (took a few more sheets to entirely clean out), but the only time I've noticed fog/toning on the plate is when they've been exposed to light for several minnutes (e.g. mishandling of the plate).
I would check in Plating/Prepress to make sure the plates are being handled and stored properly. May be issues in the pressroom too, but lets check our house out first....
Are there any telling lines/signs indicating mis-handling? Try developing a plate straight out of the box, freshly opened (just use a soft cloth and some windex)... see if you get artifacting/fog on the plate that way. I would say that suggests a material problem w/ the boxes and return them to my vendor for a full refund.

- Mac
 
no storage or light problems

no storage or light problems

the storage of the plates is in its original box with plastic cover inside
a storage draw' so this is not the reason, if you try plates with expiration date
more then five months you see no scum tone or any other problem and it takes
two sheets to be ready fo the run
 
Hi Yariv,

I would try processing a plate w/ some windex straight out of the box.
If you get artifacting on the plate then, you have a supplier problem, and I'd be looking for a refund.

- Mac
 
hi mac

i know it
but kodak israel - this is the lokal vendor
they also until 2 months ago manufactured the machine
do not recognize it as a poroblem

yariv
 
hi mac

i know it
but kodak israel - this is the lokal vendor
they also until 2 months ago manufactured the machine
do not recognize it as a poroblem

yariv

Yariv,
What platesetter are you using? Is it a Kodak one i.e Magnus 400 0r 800?
The fount solution is very important in developing these plates on press and also the type of inks on press.
You can use alcohol or fount solution to develop a plate manualy and see the results.
 
Hi Yariv,

I'm sorry, it sounds like you are having vendor problems.
Get the highest-up Kodak manager you can on site, open up a brand-new box in front of him, pull a plate out, clean it up w/ windex/alcohol/fountain solution, and show them the spots.
If they still don't give you your money back... Well, I'm really sorry to hear that, LOL!

Get Fuji's.. They work great, cost less.

- Mac



do not recognize it as a poroblem

yariv
 
Check the temperature of your fountain solution. We were having similar problems, and remaking lots of plates. It turned out our water temp was 55 degrees F (that's 12 degrees C) instead of the optimum 65 F (17 C). Once we got the right temperature, the problems disappeared.
 
Kodak Thermal Direct Plates

Kodak Thermal Direct Plates

We are having great result with the Kodak Thermal Direct Plates using our fountain solutions and substitute, try to avoid the use of alcohol on them, I have found out that on this plate, the alcohol subs will be more effective removing the layer that is soluble in water and the ink receptivity of the emulsion is enhanced. If the fount is too cold, as most alcohol users think it should be, well; I was raised thinking that way too. Our alcohol sub's works better if the fount is 60-65 degrees farenheit, you don't need to cool them much to keep viscosity and consistency as with IPA and the best thing, won't evaporate.

Jose Colon
Senior Technical Sales Representative
 
hi

it is not a fountain solution problem
yesterday i took a box of plates from a fellow printer
the expiration date is july 2010 and there were no problems
as opposed to plates with expiration feb 2010
and there was no change in the fountain solution
we use magnus 400 II

yariv
 
Check the temperature of your fountain solution. We were having similar problems, and remaking lots of plates. It turned out our water temp was 55 degrees F (that's 12 degrees C) instead of the optimum 65 F (17 C). Once we got the right temperature, the problems disappeared.


the water temp. here is above 20 c
 
Hi Jose
the prolems occure mostly on a GTO machine which not using alcohol in the fountain solution
the newar machines roland and sppdmaster which uses alcohol do not have any problems
and as i said earlier using plates with longer then 4 months expiration dates works just fine 2 impressins to clean printing
yariv
 
I am not implying that this is your issue, but you might want to run this test...

The Hone Test for plate sensitivity

In order to perform properly, a printing plate's background must be hydrophilic; attractive to water and repellent to oil. If the background of the plate is not adequately hydrophilic, all one can hope for is that it will require more water be run in order to keep the background clean, interfering with the ink/water balance. The plate background does not have to be stained or discolored in order to be inadequately hydrophilic to print well, sensitive plates can look OK, but still print poorly. There are several tests for the performance of the background (placing drops of solvent on the plate, deletion pens, droplet tests, etc), but all have potential shortcomings except for the 'Hone Test'.

To perform the Hone Test you need a product referred to as 'scratch remover'. We will define a scratch remover as a product designed to repair scratch damage to the plate by re-silicating the background. In order to be suitable for the Hone Test, a scratch remover will need to contain silicate in some form and have a pH above 10. Check the label and/or MSDS, there are lots of products like this on the market (not all are labeled as scratch removers, many plate cleaners and other types of products meet these criteria) and as long as these two conditions are met, you are good to go. Do not let anyone try to convince you that gum, plate cleaner, plate developer, plate finisher, tobacco spit, deletion pens, diet soda, drain cleaner, or expensive whiskey will work instead of a proper scratch remover, they will give you deceiving result at best.

The Hone Test is best performed on press. Pick a spot in the background that will be easy to identify on the printed work. Hone (abrade, scrape, scratch, rub, whatever) a spot in the background, making sure you have physically removed the entire surface, right down to bare metal. Try to get this spot as smooth as you can. Now that you have a fresh surface to work with, you need to treat it to make it hydrophilic. This is done by rubbing it up with the scratch remover. The scratch remover will react with the exposed metal and form a fresh hydrophilic coating. The repair that you have made to the honed area is no match for the grain and coating applied by the plate manufacturer who uses heat and electricity as well as chemicals to do this and should not work as well as the plate background. Do not let scratch remover dry on the plate, rinse it off with water or fountain solution.

Start the press and when running, slowly reduce the dampening supply until the plate scums evenly and observe the result. If the honed area runs clean at any point when the background around it is scumming, the plate is sensitive. If the honed area scums at the same rate as the rest of the background, the plate is not sensitive.

If you observe the honed area running clean while the background around it scums, all you know at this point is that the plate background is sensitive; you do not have any information on why it is sensitive. But you do know that the problem is not the press, the ink, the fountain solution, the press settings, or your bad attitude, and you should then be able to focus your efforts on determining why the plate is sensitive. Likely explanations include, but are not limited to, old plates, fogged plates, plates that have been exposed to heat, dirty developer, poor rinsing, spent developer, you get the idea.
 
Shalom Yariv,
If I understand correctly you only have a problem with your GTO plates (0.15). As you are running a Magnus 400 your Intensity should be between 300-330mw and the drum speed around 670-700RPM. I presume it is not a M400Quantum .It is very important that the focus is set up correctly. As a rule of thumb the focus for the 0.15 plate should be about twice the 0.3 plate. Have you had a Kodak engineer out to check the Magnus? If you had then your next step is to speak to the Kodak agent that supplies you with the plates.
Good luck.
 
Yariv,

Kodak Thermal Direct Non Process Plates have a 12 month shelf life. If you are experiencing issues with these plates, I would lean more towards exposure rather than the age of the plate as mentioned by PantherMac. What you are seeing with newer plates does not make sense and again focus should first be on ensuring that the plates are being handled and stored properly. If you are seeing scumming it is important to understand if scumming if happening during the rolling up of the plate or during the print run. It could be a variety of things including as mentioned the safelight tolerances have been exceeded, dampening system needs attention, too much ink, insufficient dampening or excessive roller and/or plate to blanket pressures. My recommendation would be for you to contact your local Kodak support organization. They are capable of troubleshooting both the CTP system and the plate to ensure that the roll up of the plate is being done in the most efficient way.

Derek@Kodak
 
new batch - NO Problems

new batch - NO Problems

Hi All

we got new batch of plates with date of expiration in july 2010
and now we have no problem with the plates
it take two impressions to clean sheet printing
to all of you thank you for your suggetions
to whome who expriance such problems replace the plates
and the windex wil only be used to clean windows and not plates

yariv
 
I have noticed recently a vast different in specification of KODAK T98 manufactured in German and China. The plate reacting is very different even both under the same T98 series
 

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