Problems with my MBO folder

[ptwysong]

Hi All
I've been having problems with my Mbo B30 trying to get it to make a strait score or perf. I know some of the tricks to making it straitin out but it's just a pain to alway fight wtih it everytime I have to score or perf something which I do a lot of. I'm wanting to know if anyone knows what causes it not to score or perf strait and how I can fix it
Thanks

 

[Al Ferrari]

How old is it?
Have you been operating this machine since it was new?
Was there a time when this problem was not the case?

Al

 

[ptwysong]

I have two folders that are doing the same thing. One is I believe a 80's modle and one is a 1990. they have not always been doing it. It started doing it about 4 years ago.

 

[ondemandbindery]

It all starts with sheet registration in the side guide. Before I would ask you about stock type, size, orientation for grain direction you have to make sure the sheet is consistent in the guide. Has this been a problem since you owned the machien?


John Weaver

 

[ptwysong]

I know the sheet is registering to the side guid. And it does it with any grain any size sheet I've scored anything from 24" to 6" and it's the same thing either way

 

[ptwysong]

And no it hasn't been doing it since we've had them.

 

[Al Ferrari]

If they are that old, the first thing that comes to mind of course is wear. Are the rollers all steel, or with composition segments? Is there ink build up on one side? But if the crookedness of score or perf is always in the same direction, then it is more likely one or more maladjusted deflectors after the fold. Also possibly the lower pan of the fold plate used in the fold may be crooked if the model allows for that. You say two machines are having the problem? Both in the same direction?

Are both machines the same size and model? If so, one way to pursue the cause is to exchange fold plates between them one by one. First set them both up as close as possible for the same fold and perf. Then try switching the fold plates from one to the other one at a time and carefully note any change in the results. Let us know what you find.

What did you mean by "and it's the same thing either way"?

Al

 

[ondemandbindery]

Ok. I am still asking about sheet registration. What is your marble orientation? In other words, what is the mix of steel and plastic and which marbles do you have at the end of the guide leading into the rollers? I ask about registration because this area is typically the major trouble maker on a folder. And there may be some other stuff going on as Al has said but lets get registration out of the way. Age of machine and how old is the guide belt?

John Weaver

 

[Al Ferrari]

Most folders even from the 60s have had an open slit on the last inch or so of the side guide so that the operator can see if the sheets hug the guide for their full length as they pass by. So that with even roller pressures on the first pair of rollers and a a guide set square to them, a "square sheet" should be seen to pass that viewing slit without "fishtailing".

As to the marble mix, that depends on the stiffness of the stock in the direction perpendicular to the side guide. I know most of you know this, but I am mentioning all this basic stuff just to get us all on the same page.

John is right that a badly worn belt can cause variation in the side guiding of the sheet.

Al

 

[ondemandbindery]

I have seen 4 major issues with problems that deal with side guide registration. Sheet not close enough to the guide prior to going into it. A groove in the side guide which is normal. A worn belt. And lastly the placement of the marbles in the guide. Too many steel marbles will cause a big problem especially when you have a major amount of them on the guide leading into the rollers. Al is right about the notch in the guide. Your sheet can even pull away from the guide and still create a quality fold but the key is the sheet consistently doing the same thing every time.

John Weaver

 

[ptwysong]

I've checked the sheet registation on the at the slit at the end and it was good sheet registration all the way to the end of the sheet. And as for the marbles we're running about half and half and the set up is steel side by side then plastic side by side all the way up but the last two rows are steel marbles.

And as for the rollers and ink build up the rollers are composition segments and there is no ink build up on them. I clean and zero the rollers about every week, week and a half or after a really big run. I try and keep it as much up to par as I can.

And one folder is a MBO B-30 and the other is a MBO T-29 and yes both of them are pulling the same way on the score and perf

And what I ment by "it's the same either way" I ment no matter what size paper it is or grain it is, it still won't score or perf strait

MBO came out about 3 years ago to look at them and they have no idea why they won't score or perf strait.

I'm sorry if I don't know what everything is I've only been working with these folders for about three months, and no one else will try and figure out what's wrong with them and I hate working with equipment that doesn't work right. So hear I am

Thanks so much for all of y'all help

 

[ptwysong]

Well I FINALLY have made some progress on one of the folders. This is what all I did. First I tighten the roller belt (Which was very loose), re aranged the marbles on the feeder guid, cleaned the rollers. Which while cleaning the rollers the way they showed me how to clean them. I noticed that roller #5 really wasn't getting clean. So I took the throw out rollers off and cleaned it really good. which it had a lot of ink on it. Then I zero rollers out and set my roller pressure for the run. And after all that it for the first time ever it perfed strait. And come to find out this folder the T-29 has never perfed or scored strait. And the perf held all thoughout the run of 10,000 which has never happened before. Now to get the other folder working right.

Thank you guys so much for all the advice. I for sure know were I'm coming for now on whenever I have any problems with any more equipment

 

[ondemandbindery]

Good Fix. Try and use the VMM Roller Wash whenever possible. Something like Rogersol does a great job but it sucks the Pertroleum out of the rubber part of the rollers. Speaking of cleaning you rollers, make sure to drop your bottom plates and clean all the rollers. The whole deal with the Marbles is all about having enough pressure to keep the Substrate into the guide but not so much pressure that it creates a fight of pushing and pulling between the Marbles and the Rollers. It just all comes down to consistency. If you get a consistently crooked fold or perf that can be easily corrected. It is when things are inconsistent that you really have to analyze what the problem is.

Good luck,
John Weaver

 

[ptwysong]

Thanks John. I will see if I can get them to order some of the VMM Roller Wash I'm not sure if that is the kind of roller wash we use or not but I will check tomorrow when I go into work. And when you refer to bottom plates are you refering to what we call the bottom gates. The way I was shown how to clean the rollers was pull up the two top gates and rub down the rollers with roller wash till the color on the rag starts to tun green from the rubber in rollers. which in all reality it we were cleaning all the rollers but #5 but even #1 and #3 probably aren't really getting as clean as they should be. But today I did the same thing to the B-30 folder but I haven't got to run anything on yet cause I did it right before I left work, so we will see what happens tomorrow. Thank you all so much for all the advice It has helped out so much.

 

[ptwysong]

Would either of yall know were I might be able to find operater manuals for my MBO B30 and B26 folders I've been looking for one I can down load but if not that's ok I just need them ASAP.
Thanks

 

[StahlMaster]

Clean your deflectors. Ink build-up over time may cause one side to drag.
Try going into gate 3 instead of 1 for the fold or 4 instead of 2 when folding down.
Cocking the deflector is an option.
Make sure the collers on the output shaft are not worn unevenly. Try using NO collers on one side and a few on the other. Make sure you have no "up and down" movement on the output shaft. If the crooked score / perf is after the first fold make sure you are folding on the score / perf in the second / third unit.

D