"QuickSet" ink key presetting software

[Deleted member 16349]

There is a ink key presetting software product called QuickSet. This product has been around for several years and is aimed at newspaper presses in particular but can also be applied to other web presses.

The claims are stating a very high level of performance but it is not so clear how they obtain the results claimed.

Does anyone have any direct experience with this ink key presetting software system?

Thanks. Curious to hear about actual results.

 

[Ultimate]

You can try our solution, InkReady. At only $995, the ROI is under a couple weeks for most customers.
If you are not satisfied, we back up our product with a 30 days money back garantee.

If you are interested, let me know.
Ray Duval
Ultimate Technographics
raymond @ imposition.com

 

[Deleted member 16349]

You can try our solution, InkReady. At only $995, the ROI is under a couple weeks for most customers.
If you are not satisfied, we back up our product with a 30 days money back garantee.

If you are interested, let me know.
Ray Duval
Ultimate Technographics
raymond @ imposition.com

Thanks for the offer Ray but I am curious in the QucikSet product for technical reasons.

I understand the presetting problem very well and was interested in their performance. For years I has assumed that they were over stating their capability with their presetting algorithm but now I am not so sure. They might be doing the right thing and that is why I was hoping for some feedback on performance.

 

[Inventor1000]

QuickSet de-mystified

QuickSet de-mystified

Hi Erik,

I am Steve Surbrook, President of QuickSet Corporation. I can de-mystify for you how we achieve our accuracy levels. First and formost, go to YouTube and search on "QuickSet Ink Pre-Setting" and view the video there. You will see a comparison done on a live job comparing QuickSet vs. a Closed-Loop system starting with a CIP3 ink pre-set. To get true color (read directly off the Closed-Loop systems density scanner read-out), it typically takes the Closed-Loop system (again, starting with a CIP3 ink pre-set), 10 times the amount of impressions to reach the density accuracy the QuickSet system provides from the initial ink pre-set. With that said, for any press, we print press targets that are read with densitometers. We take readings on multiple printouts at every ink adjustment position and get a complete mapping of the ink density laydown for any coverage to lever value (or servo motor value). We call this a "fingerprint". We are the only company that has ever managed to accomplish this task. So, for whatever coverage you have, we can supply the exact value of ink adjusment to achieve the proper density. CIP3 only provides a percentage value that is not correlated to the press. Particularly for web presses, the mechanical characteristics of the press far outweigh any other variables, but we are able to capture the effects. When we provide an ink pre-set, the values are correlated exactly to the press fingerprint - and that is how we provide the most accurate ink pre-sets in the world. For background, our staff includes, and has included, press designers, and inventors of ink-jet proofing for newspapers (yes, the ink jet proofing used by USA Today for all its sites and affiliated advertising agencies came from our staff), so we have an understanding of calibration techniques and web offset presses unparalleled by any other company. Do please feel free to contact us (by the way - are you out of Europe? Did we talk before?) - Steve Surbrook, President, QuickSet Corporation

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Hi Erik,

I am Steve Surbrook, President of QuickSet Corporation. I can de-mystify for you how we achieve our accuracy levels. First and formost, go to YouTube and search on "QuickSet Ink Pre-Setting" and view the video there. You will see a comparison done on a live job comparing QuickSet vs. a Closed-Loop system starting with a CIP3 ink pre-set. To get true color (read directly off the Closed-Loop systems density scanner read-out), it typically takes the Closed-Loop system (again, starting with a CIP3 ink pre-set), 10 times the amount of impressions to reach the density accuracy the QuickSet system provides from the initial ink pre-set. With that said, for any press, we print press targets that are read with densitometers. We take readings on multiple printouts at every ink adjustment position and get a complete mapping of the ink density laydown for any coverage to lever value (or servo motor value). We call this a "fingerprint". We are the only company that has ever managed to accomplish this task. So, for whatever coverage you have, we can supply the exact value of ink adjusment to achieve the proper density. CIP3 only provides a percentage value that is not correlated to the press. Particularly for web presses, the mechanical characteristics of the press far outweigh any other variables, but we are able to capture the effects. When we provide an ink pre-set, the values are correlated exactly to the press fingerprint - and that is how we provide the most accurate ink pre-sets in the world. For background, our staff includes, and has included, press designers, and inventors of ink-jet proofing for newspapers (yes, the ink jet proofing used by USA Today for all its sites and affiliated advertising agencies came from our staff), so we have an understanding of calibration techniques and web offset presses unparalleled by any other company. Do please feel free to contact us (by the way - are you out of Europe? Did we talk before?) - Steve Surbrook, President, QuickSet Corporation

Steve, thanks for your comments.

I was really looking for comments from your customers. I hope some will respond.

I am in Canada. We have not talked before. I am an engineer and with a specific interest in the density control problem on offset presses and have a good understanding of the problem. I am suspecting that the presetting algorithm you have could be superior to what the industry thinks is correct but without seeing your algorithm I can not say for sure. That is why I was hoping for user input.

It could be interesting but I really do not want to see marketing info. It is not specific enough. I am also not a buyer of such technology.

I would also agree that with proper presetting values and a capable ink feed system, getting to target densities would be much faster than a closed loop system that starts from wrong values.

Of course the problem on newspaper presses is in a way easier to address due to the weaker strength of newspaper inks and maybe due to the images that tend to be printed in newspapers.

Commercial and packaging printing is a bit more demanding due to the higher strength inks and images. Images and how they interact with the press design also affects presetting calculations.

Anyhow, I hope some users will come forward to comment.

 

[Inventor1000]

QuickSet De-mysitified

QuickSet De-mysitified

Hi Erik,

Thanks for the comments. If you view the video, you will see some customers listed in the video you could contact. Please forgive me correcting you on a misconception: The Closed-Loop system using CIP3 ink pre-sets was printed on glossy stocks with commercial inks at 320% maximum ink coverage. We need to take different measurements for newspaper stock using newsprint inks. The process is exactly the same and there is no difference in the technical complexity of solving these problems. You give us ANY press using ANY inks, and we can duplicate our density accuracy results. Our system is "measurement-based" - and you are correct that the CIP3 standard of just throwing a percentage at every type of press is not the most efficient. The variability between each ink adjustment position on the same ink fountain/duct is often very different. As an example, we often see on remote consoles from our print targets that different positions on the same ink fountain/duct will just start to transfer ink at values that range from 7 to 40 on the digital readout. If CIP3 provides any percentage number that is less than the value at that position (which sometimes means even anything 40% and under), then no ink is supplied at that position. The change with adjustment is also variable at each position (and often includes variables in the ink train besides the movement of the servo motor or lever) - so CIP3 has some limitations that only allow it to get so far - as you have recognized. We have had many companies attempt to duplicate and reverse-engineer our process. All have failed. It took 25 years of R&D to uncover critical items that cannot been seen through our interface or through our calibration methods. Our results compared to any other company are our proof we really have solved this problem completely while no one else has.

Best,

Steve Surbrook
QuickSet

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Hi Erik,

Thanks for the comments. If you view the video, you will see some customers listed in the video you could contact. Please forgive me correcting you on a misconception: The Closed-Loop system using CIP3 ink pre-sets was printed on glossy stocks with commercial inks at 320% maximum ink coverage. We need to take different measurements for newspaper stock using newsprint inks. The process is exactly the same and there is no difference in the technical complexity of solving these problems. You give us ANY press using ANY inks, and we can duplicate our density accuracy results. Our system is "measurement-based" - and you are correct that the CIP3 standard of just throwing a percentage at every type of press is not the most efficient. The variability between each ink adjustment position on the same ink fountain/duct is often very different. As an example, we often see on remote consoles from our print targets that different positions on the same ink fountain/duct will just start to transfer ink at values that range from 7 to 40 on the digital readout. If CIP3 provides any percentage number that is less than the value at that position (which sometimes means even anything 40% and under), then no ink is supplied at that position. The change with adjustment is also variable at each position (and often includes variables in the ink train besides the movement of the servo motor or lever) - so CIP3 has some limitations that only allow it to get so far - as you have recognized. We have had many companies attempt to duplicate and reverse-engineer our process. All have failed. It took 25 years of R&D to uncover critical items that cannot been seen through our interface or through our calibration methods. Our results compared to any other company are our proof we really have solved this problem completely while no one else has.

Best,

Steve Surbrook
QuickSet

Steve,

We agree that there are problems in the existing methods for presetting. No question about it.

How do you address the fact that the ink key position is not directly related to the amount of ink that goes into the press at that location?

 

[Inventor1000]

Quickset de-mystified

Quickset de-mystified

Hi Erik,

Since I am intimately familiar with the mechanical characteristics of the ink blade and the ink flow created by different gaps between the ink blade and the in ball roller, I even have software that allows the use of non-segmented ink blades. The software automatically know blade taper and flexion (we do actually capture this information during measurement) and know when compensation is needed. As you have surmised, there are technical difficutlties that make the problem not simple.

May I ask what your application is? Know I will not go into detail how we do what we do - no need for us to create a road-map for others to duplicate what we have done. So you know, my family (in the last 45 years) has made more advancements for new technology in the printing industry ranging from the pressroom to pre-press than most other companies combined (29 patents - many of which are taken for granted in the industry without most not knowing the origin), so know you are talking to a fellow engineer that comes from a deep R&D background. If there is a business case for it, collaborative efforts are always an option...

Steve

 

[Yoga]

Erik, is there a real solution for this problem with respect to offset presses...for packaging printing?

 

[Inventor1000]

Packaging Printing

Packaging Printing

Hi Yoga,

I am not Eric, but this is Steve Surbrook with QuickSet. Our solution will work with any lever or remote console. As long as the press has a method to meter the ink flow beyond an ink adjustment screw, our solution will work for it (it makes no difference what type of press). Remember, our solution is measurement-based - so the ink density accuracy is a sure thing. I guarantee we are the real thing - and a real solution. Our greatest challenge has been to get potential customers to investigate us enough to KNOW we are for real. Typically, our system is installed directly after a visit to one of our user sites (because then the potential customer knows we are for real - they see our system in a production environment and see that it works as advertised).

What type of press do you have? Do you have levers or remote console on your press?

Regards,

Steve Surbrook
QuickSet

 

[Yoga]

Thanks Steve. If not for this forum, it would be impossible to interact with someone like you!

Anyways, we have a SM 74 with a CP2000 and of course, no screws...

I am not looking to buy, but I have searched a lot related to ink presetting and only yesterday I found a post by Erik in some other thread stating the prerequisites for its success in a press (such as ink/water balance, and some other things).

So I was curious when I saw this post by the same person. Hence, I chipped in.

Anyways, do the latest presses come with such capabilities built in?

Regards,

Yoga

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Hi Erik,

Since I am intimately familiar with the mechanical characteristics of the ink blade and the ink flow created by different gaps between the ink blade and the in ball roller, I even have software that allows the use of non-segmented ink blades. The software automatically know blade taper and flexion (we do actually capture this information during measurement) and know when compensation is needed. As you have surmised, there are technical difficutlties that make the problem not simple.

May I ask what your application is? Know I will not go into detail how we do what we do - no need for us to create a road-map for others to duplicate what we have done. So you know, my family (in the last 45 years) has made more advancements for new technology in the printing industry ranging from the pressroom to pre-press than most other companies combined (29 patents - many of which are taken for granted in the industry without most not knowing the origin), so know you are talking to a fellow engineer that comes from a deep R&D background. If there is a business case for it, collaborative efforts are always an option...

Steve

Steve, I don't sell a product. I am not a manufacturer. I have developed the science that explains density variation related problems in offset presses that are related to press design. It is based on the mass balance of the ink transport in and out of the press and not on chemistry. On steady state and transient conditions. My potential customers are press manufacturers. A stubborn group.

I do have a simple and low cost patented technology that makes the ink feed consistent and independent of variables such as water, temperature and press speed. It basically eliminates ink water balance. It makes the ink feed at each ink key consistent and directly related to its gap position, which is not the case now.

On most presses with ductor transfer mechanisms, the ink metered by the ink key is about 3 to 4 times the amount of ink that actually goes into the press. Also that transfer process by the ductor is not consistent. My technology corrects this situation. Basically all of the ink that the ink key meters goes into the press and the transfer is not affected by other variables. Of course the speed of the ink fountain roller needs to be slower in order to have the same ink key range as before.

I am not allowed to talk about that specific technology on these forums but if you are curious, you can always send me a message.

My view is that the problem is not as complicated as it appears but modifications are required to gain improvement. Valid knowledge is at the heart of the solution. As you know, getting valid knowledge is not so easy to get. But with many developments in science, once it is obtained, it is not so complicated at all.

 

[Inventor1000]

Thanks for the info on your technology...

Thanks for the info on your technology...

Hi Erik,

Good to know you. Do you primarily develop your technology for sheetfed or web fed presses? We will be installing a revolutionary continuous-blanket-contact web offset press this fall in the United States. It keeps perfect corner-to-corner color register since the press never lets go of the paper from one perfecting printing unit to another (no paper stretch). Is your inking system based on something similar to Goss' digital page pack?

I do know about the situation you are referring to when it comes to ductor presses. I do have to take (usually) about 8 times as many measurements to see the variations that occur on the ductor so our calibration point is centered between those variations. Anything that can stabilize the non-repeatability issues related to any press design assists my system in being more accurate. The press you see in the QuickSet video is a ductor press, and even though our ink pre-sets on this press are near ideal, to reach true color can require one pass through the Closed-Loop system (although we do hit true color a good percentage of the time). A system like yours could stabilize the final variables the we deal with.

It may be quite likely that your system for ductor presses combined with our system could provide for the ulitmate accuracy for a ductor press. The more variations eliminated, the better our system works.

(We have some knowledge that would be considered simple, but not obvious. There are other things we have done which are not so simple - elegant maybe, but definitely not simple. Separating out the variablies, and discovering which variable are important (and what type of tolerances you can live with concerning those variables) is what separates success in a production environment vs non-success.)

What does your system cost? Our sister company (Color Impact International) manufactures web offset presses, and we designed the original continuous-blanket-contact press, the basic design the was marketed as the "Quad-Stack" by Web Press Corporation.

Regards,

Steve Surbrook, President
QuickSet Corporation
(425) 793-7770
[email protected]
[email protected]

 

[Inventor1000]

Quick-Start Tower

Quick-Start Tower

Hi Yoga,

Our sister company, Color Impact International, will be installing a web offset press that keeps perfect corner-to-corner register (patent applied for) due to its mechanical configuration. The press comes stock with the QuickSet Ink Pre-Setting system (so both register and color are guaranteed 500 copies or less). The package price is $325,000 for any presses purchased before December 12, 2012. The price will increase to $365,000 for the package (tower plus ink pre-setting) on January 1, 2013. Folders, rollstands, etc. are separate. We have sold the system with new presses from Tensor, and onto new QuadStack installs, and onto new installs from other manufacturers. We also have a USA Today site using the system - and also various commercial printers, like Kopco, Inc. in Caney Kansas (the company you may have seen on our YouTube video).

Anything more you wish to know, please ask.

Regards,

Steve Surbrook, President
QuickSet Corporation
(425) 793-7770
[email protected]
[email protected]

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Hi Erik,

Good to know you. Do you primarily develop your technology for sheetfed or web fed presses? We will be installing a revolutionary continuous-blanket-contact web offset press this fall in the United States. It keeps perfect corner-to-corner color register since the press never lets go of the paper from one perfecting printing unit to another (no paper stretch). Is your inking system based on something similar to Goss' digital page pack?

I do know about the situation you are referring to when it comes to ductor presses. I do have to take (usually) about 8 times as many measurements to see the variations that occur on the ductor so our calibration point is centered between those variations. Anything that can stabilize the non-repeatability issues related to any press design assists my system in being more accurate. The press you see in the QuickSet video is a ductor press, and even though our ink pre-sets on this press are near ideal, to reach true color can require one pass through the Closed-Loop system (although we do hit true color a good percentage of the time). A system like yours could stabilize the final variables the we deal with.

It may be quite likely that your system for ductor presses combined with our system could provide for the ulitmate accuracy for a ductor press. The more variations eliminated, the better our system works.

(We have some knowledge that would be considered simple, but not obvious. There are other things we have done which are not so simple - elegant maybe, but definitely not simple. Separating out the variablies, and discovering which variable are important (and what type of tolerances you can live with concerning those variables) is what separates success in a production environment vs non-success.)

What does your system cost? Our sister company (Color Impact International) manufactures web offset presses, and we designed the original continuous-blanket-contact press, the basic design the was marketed as the "Quad-Stack" by Web Press Corporation.

Regards,

Steve Surbrook, President
QuickSet Corporation
(425) 793-7770
[email protected]
[email protected]

Steve, I think we need to carry this conversation offline. This is getting interesting.

I did look at the video. The comments there were talking about makeready in 200 to 300 impressions. I have stated on this forum before that I expect that it would be down to 50 impressions if a press had the right presetting data and the ink feed problem was corrected. This is based on going from one job to another that both were run at the same density targets. The 50 impression values comes from some computer simulations that were done a long time ago.

Yes I would say that my technology and knowledge would be compatible with your efforts. My concept functionally does the same thing as the Goss system but at a much much lower cost. It also avoids an inherent problem the Goss approach has which results in very slow response and which allows for temporary density variations due to disturbances. My concept does not allow those disturbances to affect ink feed into the high speed roller train.

The science and related technical concepts are equally useful to web or sheetfed presses.

On the web press related topic, I would say that your assumption that there are no paper stretching issues could be in error. In 1997 I gave a TAGA paper on the analysis of web tensions in offset presses and it might be of interest to you. It attempts to mathematically describe the tension issues in the press related to blanket diameters, types, squeeze, etc. It is also related to the print repeat length that is very much related to web tension.

I will contact you offline.

 

[HKafeman]

Steve

Having read the discussions here and looked at your video, I am very intrigued by some aspects of QuickSet.

If you characterise/fingerprint the Ink Ducts, then how do you cope with variations due to wear, maintenance, calibration, etc.?

How can you possibly fingerprint every position of every Ink Key on a Press?

How do you deal with the effects of neighbouring Ink Keys and the oscillating rollers?

I am an industry Consultant and have been working on the Software, Systems and Industrial Automation in Printing Plants (Newspaper and Commercial) for over 25 years. I have a particular interest, experience and knowledge of Ink Presetting Systems.

Thanks and Regards
Henry Kafeman

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

Steve, just to build on Henry's post, when you say 'closed loop' are you referring to running a sheet through an off line scanner like an Intellitrax and reading the colour bars and adjusting the inks keys automatically to change ink density. I understand this for sheetfed where you have a complete sheet to read, how do you accomlish this with sections from a web press.

 

[Yoga]

Hi Yoga,

Our sister company, Color Impact International, will be installing a web offset press that keeps perfect corner-to-corner register (patent applied for) due to its mechanical configuration. The press comes stock with the QuickSet Ink Pre-Setting system (so both register and color are guaranteed 500 copies or less). The package price is $325,000 for any presses purchased before December 12, 2012. The price will increase to $365,000 for the package (tower plus ink pre-setting) on January 1, 2013. Folders, rollstands, etc. are separate. We have sold the system with new presses from Tensor, and onto new QuadStack installs, and onto new installs from other manufacturers. We also have a USA Today site using the system - and also various commercial printers, like Kopco, Inc. in Caney Kansas (the company you may have seen on our YouTube video).

Anything more you wish to know, please ask.

Regards,

Steve Surbrook, President
QuickSet Corporation
(425) 793-7770
[email protected]
[email protected]

Thanks Steve..

 

[blazini]

Steve, just to build on Henry's post, when you say 'closed loop' are you referring to running a sheet through an off line scanner like an Intellitrax and reading the colour bars and adjusting the inks keys automatically to change ink density. I understand this for sheetfed where you have a complete sheet to read, how do you accomlish this with sections from a web press.

I'm not Steve, but from what I understand his system has nthing to do with closed loop color, it is just being compared to closed loop color.

Closed loop color on a webpress is a set of cameras, one for each side of the web. They move back and forth scanning the colorbar and moving keys constantly.

I'm still waiting for somebody to come up with closed loop water