Replace BW production printers, Xerox Docutech 6180 with?

[kslight]

We are more I guess of a production printer (as opposed to retail copy center), with several machines and a separate bindery department for finishing. Our BW volume is around 1 - 1.5 million mostly 11x17 impressions. Mostly 20# bond. Some tab stocks as well (we cut tabs in house so being able to mylar the output is important), but because we currently have 6180s generally no BW printing on coated stocks. Nothing super fancy. The image quality on the 6180s is pretty dated but most people buying BW work from us don't seem to mind.

For the last couple decades we have been exclusively Xerox, primarily because of the impression that they are the "best" as far as service goes. I'm not entirely convinced that this is still true, in my 11 years with this company I have seen Xerox tank on response time (often lucky if we even get next day service), few copies between service calls (frequent callbacks, problems not completely resolved until 2-3 technicians have been out here), preventative maintenance is no longer performed (Xerox only wants to replace parts as they break), our local service department has laid off many techs (which obviously kills the response time), and to top it off...yes of course our contracts go up 10% in cost every year like clockwork regardless of quality of service.

We are in the market to pick up two BW machines to swap out the 6180s with. Would like "similar" production capacity, though honestly a slightly slower but significantly more reliable machine would likely still exceed the productivity we currently achieve. In line finishing is not super important, however having several 11x17 trays for insertions is definitely something we need.


Of course Xerox has an answer...upgrade to Nuveras...but given our current level of satisfaction with their service we are not confident that the situation would change...just perhaps our image quality would be better .

So the question then is...how are the other guys? Do they make a reliable printer? Do they have enough technicians on staff to fix it fairly promptly?

 

[arossetti]

My last company we were exclusively xerox for a long time, and they largerly still are. We went from docutechs to nuveras, to nuvera EA, and on. Finally we made the switch with out bw production to the Canon/Oce Vario Print and my god what a difference. The only thing to be careful of is finishing printed material from it. The toner doesn't fully adhere to the paper so if you have friction fed feeders on any of your finishing equipment it can cause issues. They do offer a module to help with the fixating of ink but I never tested it.

I would do your homework but the VarioPrint should be on your list. The nuvera stacker finishers are garbage and I'm so glad to never have to deal with them again.

 

[kslight]

My last company we were exclusively xerox for a long time, and they largerly still are. We went from docutechs to nuveras, to nuvera EA, and on. Finally we made the switch with out bw production to the Canon/Oce Vario Print and my god what a difference. The only thing to be careful of is finishing printed material from it. The toner doesn't fully adhere to the paper so if you have friction fed feeders on any of your finishing equipment it can cause issues. They do offer a module to help with the fixating of ink but I never tested it.

I would do your homework but the VarioPrint should be on your list. The nuvera stacker finishers are garbage and I'm so glad to never have to deal with them again.

Thanks for your input. What are your thoughts on service? I realize that it'll vary from region to region...but are you down frequently, and when you are down, are you ever waiting for days simply for the technician to show up, how long are you waiting for parts?

We have problems with both Xerox BW and Color service response times at the moment, I've got one color machine with a service call aged 2 days right now. Can't get anyone even out here, service manager won't respond, etc. One of our 6180s has been down more than half the month, off and on.

 

[namelessentity]

We've got a Varioprint 6320. Service is usually out the same day or next day if I call too late in the day (like 1pm or later). The 6000 series is pretty much their most common machine, and they all share parts. Most of the time a tech has parts on hand for general maintenance, otherwise I'll see a part next day or within two days. It very rarely needs actual maintenance, and it will almost never jam. I pretty much only get jams if I'm running the machine out of spec, or I'm throwing really weird stock at it.

There's a couple of things expected of users that take some getting used to, and if you neglect them you'll see print quality suffer. As long as you don't slack though the thing is a tank.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

I've got one color machine with a service call aged 2 days right now. Can't get anyone even out here, service manager won't respond, etc. One of our 6180s has been down more than half the month, off and on.

Call your sales rep and tell them what's going on. Tell them if the machine isn't fixed by x date, you're going to call the Customer Relations Group through Xerox, and apart from that you are already heavily considering choosing another vendor for your upgrade due to service response times. If that doesn't get their attention, then switch.

 

[arossetti]

We bought through a distributor and they were so happy to finally be the ones to break into our Xerox shop they went above and beyond. We replaced 3 nuvera's with 1 VP6000 so they did everything they could to keep us up and making clicks. The amount of service the VP6000 requires compared to the Nuvera is night and day. We could go months without service compared to 1-2 calls a week on the Xerox.

 

[kslight]

Call your sales rep and tell them what's going on. Tell them if the machine isn't fixed by x date, you're going to call the Customer Relations Group through Xerox, and apart from that you are already heavily considering choosing another vendor for your upgrade due to service response times. If that doesn't get their attention, then switch.

Problem is our sales rep is straddling several positions at the moment as he has taken on a new department. He is fully aware of our concerns, he is copied in on all communications to the service manager and I call him directly when the service manager fails to respond. Like all of our local support, he seems to be stretched too thin to do us much good. Its not like we are anywhere near the biggest spenders in town with Xerox. Probably not even the squeakiest wheel either, but I know we are not the only frustrated accounts in town.

I've had a lot of trouble getting a response from Customer Care lately as well.

I'm trying to get a proposal for a competitive machine so we have some leverage, right now I don't really want to make any empty threats. But I also wouldn't want to make a dramatic exit from Xerox if the competitors will not meet expectations.

 

[kslight]

We've got a Varioprint 6320. Service is usually out the same day or next day if I call too late in the day (like 1pm or later). The 6000 series is pretty much their most common machine, and they all share parts. Most of the time a tech has parts on hand for general maintenance, otherwise I'll see a part next day or within two days. It very rarely needs actual maintenance, and it will almost never jam. I pretty much only get jams if I'm running the machine out of spec, or I'm throwing really weird stock at it.

There's a couple of things expected of users that take some getting used to, and if you neglect them you'll see print quality suffer. As long as you don't slack though the thing is a tank.

That's generally reasonable and expected, when we place calls in the morning and still don't have anyone here the next morning is pushing it...especially if the technician has to order parts (as they often do because their parts drop doesn't hold anything) and we are down another day.

What kind of user involvement is required? To be clear, I am not usually the operator...I oversee the department. So the goal would be that my operator could handle these tasks himself.

 

[kslight]

We bought through a distributor and they were so happy to finally be the ones to break into our Xerox shop they went above and beyond. We replaced 3 nuvera's with 1 VP6000 so they did everything they could to keep us up and making clicks. The amount of service the VP6000 requires compared to the Nuvera is night and day. We could go months without service compared to 1-2 calls a week on the Xerox.

That's interesting. You didn't see any problems with having 1 machine versus 3? We have always had at least 2 of each device, so we aren't totally stuck if we have a machine down (unless we have....both machines down). We used to have 3 6180s but because 1 sat idle most of the time we chose to trade one in a second color device. There are certainly days where a third machine would get us out of a pinch, but at the same time, we didn't feel it should be on us to have excessive redundant capacity...it should be on Xerox to keep the equipment going.

 

[KopyBoss]

We have received excellent service from Xerox over the years. Techs are usually here within 2 hours after placing a service call, we have 6 Xerox boxes (3 -1000i / 2 Nuveras 314 & 1 -288) and only see the techs maybe 2-3 times a month.

 

[arossetti]

That's interesting. You didn't see any problems with having 1 machine versus 3? We have always had at least 2 of each device, so we aren't totally stuck if we have a machine down (unless we have....both machines down). We used to have 3 6180s but because 1 sat idle most of the time we chose to trade one in a second color device. There are certainly days where a third machine would get us out of a pinch, but at the same time, we didn't feel it should be on us to have excessive redundant capacity...it should be on Xerox to keep the equipment going.

We negotiated a low BW click on our iGen to use it as a backup for when the VP went down, but it was rare.

 

[kslight]

We have received excellent service from Xerox over the years. Techs are usually here within 2 hours after placing a service call, we have 6 Xerox boxes (3 -1000i / 2 Nuveras 314 & 1 -288) and only see the techs maybe 2-3 times a month.

We currently have 6 Xerox devices with service agreements. This is how it was here until a couple of years ago, 2-4 hours became 8, which in the last few months has been turning into days. For some reason the local service department has chosen to not replace several retiring technicians over the years, and has laid off even more. We are not in a small service area, so their actions seem conflicting.

 

[arossetti]

As we talk about service intervals it probably is important to also discuss the type of work you were producing. I would think transpromo would have a higher level of image quality tolerance to illustrated book printing. We did a lot of manuals and text book printing which had a lot of photography and illustrations which made us a little more sensitive to image quality. But also, again for emphasis, f*** the stacker finisher on the Nuvera.

 

[kslight]

As we talk about service intervals it probably is important to also discuss the type of work you were producing. I would think transpromo would have a higher level of image quality tolerance to illustrated book printing. We did a lot of manuals and text book printing which had a lot of photography and illustrations which made us a little more sensitive to image quality. But also, again for emphasis, f*** the stacker finisher on the Nuvera.

Generally our BW work is not image quality critical. Mostly text, manuals, books, handouts... When we have higher end requirements or coated papers we will push the job onto a color device in BW mode, but this is infrequent.

If the print adheres, doesn't have streaks/deletions/excessive defects and has decent registration, ...that's the image quality expectation we have. And of course we need the machine to run normal ream-wrapped 20#/similar paper and some light card stocks without excessive jam clearance or operator intervention. Our service calls on the 6180s are never splitting hairs about image quality or registration, I think our expectations are pretty fundamental.

We have the high cap stackers on the 6180s which are...quirky...but generally functional for what we use them for. I realize not the same as Nuvera's stacker, but I would have hoped the Nuvera would be an improvement.

 

[Stickman42]

We replaced the Xerox finisher stacker on our two Nuveras with the Bourg production stacker (no stapling, stacking only). Great move for us. Stacking is superior, even with max paper size of 12.5x18.5. It did have some issues, but most machines do.

 

[namelessentity]

That's generally reasonable and expected, when we place calls in the morning and still don't have anyone here the next morning is pushing it...especially if the technician has to order parts (as they often do because their parts drop doesn't hold anything) and we are down another day.

What kind of user involvement is required? To be clear, I am not usually the operator...I oversee the department. So the goal would be that my operator could handle these tasks himself.

It uses spiral rollers and clean sheets instead of a waste toner container. They are supplies you have to keep on hand, the techs typically won't have them. The clean sheets seem to need to be replaced more than the machine will prompt you. If you neglect them it will start to contaminate the imaging area. It's all very easy to do, takes about 5 minutes, it's just easy to forget since it's pretty unique to the equipment.

 

[kslight]

It uses spiral rollers and clean sheets instead of a waste toner container. They are supplies you have to keep on hand, the techs typically won't have them. The clean sheets seem to need to be replaced more than the machine will prompt you. If you neglect them it will start to contaminate the imaging area. It's all very easy to do, takes about 5 minutes, it's just easy to forget since it's pretty unique to the equipment.

Okay so nothing much more involved than another consumable swap basically, thank you.

 

[namelessentity]

Okay so nothing much more involved than another consumable swap basically, thank you.

It's a little more complicated than basic consumables, but again, it's easy once you've done it a few times.
Here's a video to give you an idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdVT9P9SlXw

 

[msaeger]

It's a little more complicated than basic consumables, but again, it's easy once you've done it a few times.
Here's a video to give you an idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdVT9P9SlXw

That guys makes a good video.

 

[stonemask]

The Ricoh 8200´s have also performed well.