Replacing iGen3's HELP iGen4, NexPress, Bizhub or Imagepress

[soontobeexkonicauser]

Tests on our igen vs. Running Tests in Rochester and El Segundo.

Math wont do it. You need to do real world tests.

The iGen3 has tremendously more maintenance & maintenance operations (see: Adjusting Print Quality)

Our runs are anywhere from 7,000 - 12,000 impressions of 14"x22" paper.

The igen3 runs at 1,000/hr
The igen4 runs at 2,000/hr

ipm is sales hype. iph is where your bread is buttered.

Is that a simplex or duplex result?

 

[soontobeexkonicauser]

We have two iGen3's in our shop. The lease's expire in December. This is an in-house shop and we don't expect our volumes to increase (1 shift, about 300,000 clicks-per-month). If justified, we can get what we want, including Xerox (at a Xerox price). Our floorplan options:

1. Xerox - 1x iGen3 and 1x iGen4. We would renew one of our old 3's and pay maintenance/clicks.
2. Ricoh/Kodak - 1x Nexpress SX3300 and 1x Ricoh C901
3. Canon - 3x ImagePress 7010vp
4. KM - 3x BizHub 8000c

With choice 1, we know what we're getting, but it costs. Choice 2 is not much cheaper, but we have no previous experience. Choices 3 and 4 would save a lot of money, but would a current "iGen3 shop" be satisfied with these smaller units?

You feel you need 3 C8000's to accomplish 300,000 clicks a month? WOW! I thought these were rated at 500,000 clicks a month... You should be able to accomplish that with one C8000. The igen4 would be great to have, but overkill. You could deploy two Xerox 7000/8000 and be in excellent shape, really, one would be sufficient, keep your igen3 as backup for downtime and take it off of maintenance agreement. That would be the most cost effective and give you sufficient bandwidth with good color. If you still feel compelled to go with KM, then yes, by all means by three, you'll need them.

 

[happywing]

Thanks to all for the responses and the spirited discussion.

Yes, what I outlined is overkill, but we are looking at some huge unknowns in our business and a wave of government ralated work. We need some extra capacity and no matter the route we go, we will save some money compared to our present state.

All that said, iGen may still be overkill and we stand to save significantly if we go to mid-sized. The goal now has evolved to which mid-sized? More specifically, (3x)Canon 7010vp vs. (3x)KM c8000. Will three of either of these machines meet the quality and output requirements of a former 2x iGen3 shop?

 

[rsands]

test 350gsm solids is all i can say. c8000 dont like it

 

[MARSGOLD]

For what I know, I would avoid the Canon and the KM if you are used to the quality of the Igen(even if this one is not perfect, but does a such machine exist?).
The nexpress is a really good printing system.

Of course, it's much cheaper to use smaller system but you are not going to get the same quality and reliability.
Keep also in count that you are going to spend much more time to print the same amount of sheets!

That said, it all depend of what your customers are ready to accept.

 

[happywing]

Regarding quality, I guess my reasoning is in question. I conjectured that present-day quality on a mid-sized (c8000, 7010vp) would be at least as good or better than our 5-year-old iGen3's. Showroom demos confirmed this, but other than anecdotes, I have no evidence that this quality will hold up over a long run or a busy week. Am I way off here?

 

[MARSGOLD]

Better to take the results in the showrooms with a pinch of salt. They prepare the machine as a F1, once the machine is in production I highly doubt they will agree to replace everything as often as they do in the showroom!

If the machine is not designed for production, chances are high it will not hold on the long run (but you may be lucky).
For what I know, these machine are not (return from technician or other printer). But it mainly depend of how high is the peak production.

One of the problem of having only one machine is when something broke and you are waiting for the technician to come. It's almost always in the middle of a hurry job.

Another point is : they are using more and more plastic in place of metal (at least on the low/medium range) and the reliability is not the same. Especially because the plastic is heated and tend to broke on high production.
At least, it's my experience.

All this is not easy, I know. It's more and more complicated to choose the material and you never know how will be the business next year.

 

[arossetti]

Our runs are anywhere from 7,000 - 12,000 impressions of 14"x22" paper.

The igen3 runs at 1,000/hr
The igen4 runs at 2,000/hr

ipm is sales hype. iph is where your bread is buttered.

Are you calculating 14x22" equivalents for the iGen3? If the majority of your speed gain is from the larger sheet size then yes that would make sense. Not everyone's work can optimize that sheet size however.

 

[KopyBoss]

Regarding quality, I guess my reasoning is in question. I conjectured that present-day quality on a mid-sized (c8000, 7010vp) would be at least as good or better than our 5-year-old iGen3's. Showroom demos confirmed this, but other than anecdotes, I have no evidence that this quality will hold up over a long run or a busy week. Am I way off here?

We just got our third c8000 installed today. So far we have not had an issue with the quality, we run approx 250k -380k month per machine
13 x19 - 350gsm stock, with maybe 1-2 service calls per work. If you have operators who know how to run the machines they are great boxes. The quality is close to the Indigo & iGen. The reason we went with the three c8000 and not the others price, and the quality is not that far off. If you need a true digital press and cost is not an issue go with the iGen or Indigo.

 

[rsands]

would you be willing to do a test for me? Print a 350gsm board with a wine red: this colour:

http://www.abbuildingproducts.co.uk/images/content/Sealants/coloured_silicones/3005_wine_red.jpg

just solid on the sheet and take a picture? I cannot understand how our machine creates a terrible banding line?!

If you could would be great - would help us get Konica to replace this thing of ours

 

[arossetti]

Developer/developer housing issue? Is that a thing with this machine?

 

[rsands]

our c8000 just bands constant on 280gsm and above...not a faint line - its about 1-1.5cm wide and stands out like a sore thumb.

 

[KopyBoss]

would you be willing to do a test for me? Print a 350gsm board with a wine red: this colour:

http://www.abbuildingproducts.co.uk/images/content/Sealants/coloured_silicones/3005_wine_red.jpg

just solid on the sheet and take a picture? I cannot understand how our machine creates a terrible banding line?!

If you could would be great - would help us get Konica to replace this thing of ours

Here you go printed on 352gsm stock.

 

[rsands]

Here you go printed on 352gsm stock.
View attachment 3121

Thanks!! that was quick! If we printed that we get a huge band...will get the guys in morning to print it and get a picture.

Richard

 

[MARSGOLD]

Quick reply, indeed!
And the result doesn't look bad.
Interesting.

 

[rsands]

Not to be fussy but could you get a higher res photo? Just Konica want to get a look here to ensure its not appearing

 

[MARSGOLD]

After this discussion on the c8000, I have been on a demo today and it's very tempting to buy one (a C7000, I don't have enough work to need higher. And given the price, it's always possible to buy a second one)
I never realised how cheap it was! (but it's not the only argument, by far)
Decision will be taken this week.

 

[Craig]

Cheep is good, but good isn't always cheep!

 

[MARSGOLD]

And expensive is not always good! (the 700i from xerox is very expensive for a quality who is soso(not so good))
What I wanted to say is : the C7000/8000 are not expensive for what they are. (if it was possible, I would prefer by far to buy a nexpress or an indigo but I don't have the volume(and my customers are not ready to pay))

 

[Craig]

Not meant to bash... just look at everything first and the price last. If you budget shop for a production machine you will get what you got. I've seen to many people get a machine on price alone and then get burnt because it would not perform up to their expectations or future needs. There is no worse feeling then cutting your first set of business cards and finding out the sheets bounce around +/- 1mm and your margins look like a 5 year old cut them.