Replacing the ol' Docu250

[Craig]

From a conversation I had with a xerox tech, the 700 will not print the same quality as the 5000, 7000, 8000 on coated stocks.

 

[Davco]

From a conversation I had with a xerox tech, the 700 will not print the same quality as the 5000, 7000, 8000 on coated stocks.

We'll have to provide some coated stock and see what happens.

Do you have any details as far as what is lacking?


On quality, we did have Ikon run some samples on the 6500 and they looked good....most of it did. Solids and pictures look real good but screens are blotchy (kinda pixelized...) compared to our 250. There were also some weird color lines (screens had some green lines) but they blamed it on the fact that they had to run the samples off real quick. It amazes me how people try to sell something by giving less than perfect results and then giving an excuse for the machine....as if we should just take their word for it and buy a machine.

 

[random]

I work for Konica Minolta

I work for Konica Minolta

Craig you are an angry angry little man. I made special effort to go and find an 8000 customer this week because y'know you know someone that knows someone that drinks at the same bar as someone that has a brother who's mother inlaws uncles son once had a jam in a c6500.

I was going to listen with an open mind how great this machine was, how it never jammed had a colour shift of less than 2dE and registration of less than .5mm. Unfortunatly Craig they absolutely hate it! I could not beleave my ears! How could this POSSIBLY be true. Untill I found another 8000 owner who claims there machine has not run correctly since it got installed.

I'll admit, hand to heart the c6500 is not the perfect machine, I don't think they have made one yet - I thought they had with the 8000, but these two owners were spitting flames about these lemons. So I am at 100% hit rate for the 8000 sucking eggs.

This is true I do not own a print shop, I don't depend on a machine to put food on the table but I do understand that the printer I service is the livelyhood of someone else, and I will move heaven and earth to make sure MY customers wring ever inch out of there c6500 for the simple pleasure of watching the DC5000 sitting next to it hemorrhage as the customers says 'Id rather have the print that looks like it is off a press thanks'.

ahhhhh simple pleasures.

With a bit of luck shortly we will parking up next to an 8000 and then it will be GAME ON! I will let you know when they push the 8000 out ......I'll take photos lol!

Solids and pictures look real good but screens are blotchy (kinda pixelized...)

Tell them to change the screen to line, man these are simple problems.

 

[Craig]

Random, please make sure you know which 8000 you are talking about, I believe the 8000AP is the 3rd modification of the machine. It would be like comparing the KM500 (or whatever preceded the c6500) to the c6500. If the customers were soooooo unhappy why didn't they implement the Xerox guarantee??? They would have worked through the proper channels and had a replacement. The customer I am referring to is one of the largest amusement parks in the world, and my friend of a friend is a relative who works there. It's not just jamming, but the colors... how did they put it.... "SUCK" and "It couldn't produce the same color twice in a row". Mind you this may very well be the krappy service they get from the krappy "KM Office Copier Dealer" I'll give you that much.

"Tell them to change the screen to line, man these are simple problems." But Random a REAL press prints with dots, or better yet stochastic screens... not lines like an office copier.

This isn't a pissing match about the "better" machine, but rather pointing out the pitfalls of machines when members of the forum ask. If KM can't take the heat, they need to get out of the production kitchen. I will be more than happy to share my thoughts and experiences with these devices, I have owned 6 color boxes to date starting with a CLC350. I think I am very astute on what to look for in a production box.
My only complaint on the DC8000AP to date is the oiler on the fuser wares out prematurely (65,000 to 70,000 impressions), but unlike some manufactures Xerox is re-engineering the part for those of us who run 12x18 coated cover stocks. What was KM's fix for my brother-in-law... switch fusers between 11 x 17 and 12 x 18 runs, what a pleasant thing to do after the box just ran for an hour or 2, as I am sure you know. Oh and I wish it was faster, I can only duplex 12x18 300gsm at 1200sph.

 

[random]

It's not just jamming, but the colors... how did they put it.... "SUCK" and "It couldn't produce the same color twice in a row". Mind you this may very well be the krappy service they get from the krappy "KM Office Copier Dealer" I'll give you that much.

I understand now the machine is fine the service is rubbish. Apology accepted.

"Tell them to change the screen to line, man these are simple problems." But Random a REAL press prints with dots, or better yet stochastic screens... not lines like an office copier.

A REAL press gives you options to get the best result. If you customers rejects a job because of screen you have bigger problems than can be resolved here.

This isn't a pissing match about the "better" machine, but rather pointing out the pitfalls of machines when members of the forum ask.

This is true but you have done nothing but slag off c6500 when you don't even own one so really your comments are personal opinion rather than fact. I think you will notice I have made no comments about the 8000 to this point as I have no idea how good or bad they are.....until now.

If KM can't take the heat, they need to get out of the production kitchen.

At what point has KM said they can't take the heat? We should change your name to random as that was a truely random comment. In my neck of the woods we are destroying Xerox.

Oh and I wish it was faster, I can only duplex 12x18 300gsm at 1200sph.

Going by your previouse comments you monthly volume would be knocked out in just over a week so really your machine spends more time off than on. Hard to break down that way.

I think the crux of the matter is service to be brutally honest. You could have the greatest machine in the world but if the monkey at the end of wrench isn't into it then you have no show and this is whats probably happening at your bemusement park.

 

[Davco]

I think that I'd like to have lunch with Craig and Random so we could sit around the table and give each other a hard time. Funny stuff. Loving the signature, Random.

This is what it is coming down to for us right now (could change). I'm pulling away from the c6500 for a couple of reasons.

1. Service is scary. I don't want to take the chance of getting a machine that has shady service. Maybe it is good but maybe it isn't. We don't know. I'd lease the machine with IKON through a 3rd party. Service will probably be a 3rd party. So this makes it a little less dependable in my mind....based off of previous 3rd party service contracts.

2. Quality is questionable. Maybe we could change it to line but our sales rep never mentioned that. Instead, he gave some excuse about not having the time to get it perfect...as if it could be gotten perfect. He is the one pushing a time on us so why did he not have time to make it right. He has done a less than impressive job representing their company and products.

I know what I'm getting with Xerox. If I have a problem then I can get to the top of the food chain pretty easy. They have taken pretty good care of us with our Docu250 even though we have pushed it three times passed it limits on a monthly average. Maybe a higher price is worth the security. Also, they know the competition and are lowering prices to compete even on that level.

 

[Craig]

I think the crux of the matter is service to be brutally honest. You could have the greatest machine in the world but if the monkey at the end of wrench isn't into it then you have no show and this is whats probably happening at your bemusement park.

Amen Brother!!!

But in defense I have not completely slagged off the c6500, I have stated that it is an excellent officer copier.

 

[UncleSam]

If you get IKON or CANON, soon or later, you will regret for your decision. I will choose Xerox over them because of the quality and services.

 

[Davco]

I'm pretty sure we've decided to take the route of two 700's and keeping our 250. We are waiting to test the 700 with a couple of different paper stock types and we are working out the accessories for the 700.

Reliability of service was huge for us. Also, two 700's should outperform a single 5000 or 2 6500's for our application and needs (speed and quality).

I'll keep everyone updated.

 

[Craig]

Davco, are you going to GraphExpo by chance. It's a great place to see the different machines in one spot. If you go, find a machine you really want that is running, walk up to it and open the door, cause a jam and see what kind of a PIA it is to clear a jam. After all you will get a jam on any machine at some point in time. On our Ricoh MP9000 I will tell you that small hands are a must, I think it was engineered by Pigmy's, somewhat of a pain to clear jams in some of the spots.

Are you going to have the 700's configured with any feeders/finishers? Are you able to get 1 front end to run them both? I have the EFI EX8000 and am very happy with it's performance. What is your main application? If you're like us we don't have a "main" application, we run the gamut as far as paper weights, almost all of our prints are 12x18 sheet size though. Were running a crap load of 100lb gloss cover right now.

I know that Random and I get into a rant, but he doesn't know the issues I had with a Canon CLC4000 after 5 Canon color machines. Sales promised more than the machine would perform, 2 years, 2 machines (both lemons) almost a law suite to get out of the lease. I just don't want to see anyone go through what I had to for 2 years, I almost lost one of my largest accounts over it. Everything worked great on both machines for about 100k then it went to hell in a handbag. Everything from DC control boards to lasers to fuser rollers every 12,000 clicks (that was every week), you name it and it went wrong with it.

Let us know how your test samples come back, I'll pry my Xerox people for more info too.

 

[Davco]

Davco, are you going to GraphExpo by chance. It's a great place to see the different machines in one spot. If you go, find a machine you really want that is running, walk up to it and open the door, cause a jam and see what kind of a PIA it is to clear a jam. After all you will get a jam on any machine at some point in time. On our Ricoh MP9000 I will tell you that small hands are a must, I think it was engineered by Pigmy's, somewhat of a pain to clear jams in some of the spots.

Are you going to have the 700's configured with any feeders/finishers? Are you able to get 1 front end to run them both? I have the EFI EX8000 and am very happy with it's performance. What is your main application? If you're like us we don't have a "main" application, we run the gamut as far as paper weights, almost all of our prints are 12x18 sheet size though. Were running a crap load of 100lb gloss cover right now.

I know that Random and I get into a rant, but he doesn't know the issues I had with a Canon CLC4000 after 5 Canon color machines. Sales promised more than the machine would perform, 2 years, 2 machines (both lemons) almost a law suite to get out of the lease. I just don't want to see anyone go through what I had to for 2 years, I almost lost one of my largest accounts over it. Everything worked great on both machines for about 100k then it went to hell in a handbag. Everything from DC control boards to lasers to fuser rollers every 12,000 clicks (that was every week), you name it and it went wrong with it.

Let us know how your test samples come back, I'll pry my Xerox people for more info too.

I haven't planned on going to any expo but that could change if I had more info. Where/when is it?

Application: The majority of our stuff is run on 11x17 60lb offset. Sometimes we step up to 80lb cover (with an occasional gloss cover). If bleeds are necessary (maybe 20%) then we have to go with some 12x18. We are talking about moving our sheetfed press into working with our webpress and doing more digital...cost is better than hiring someone to help with our web press. We run about everything but most of our stuff is on the stocks listed about.

One 700 will have a finishing booklet maker but it will not trim (I love the booklet maker on the 5000 that trimmed 3 sides...way to expensive). We are working out the details on the feeders. They want to give us one "oversized" tray that will hold 2000 13x19.2 sheets but I'm going to push for two for each machine.

The workstation is a fiery but we can choose a creo or a docusomthing. It should be able to communicate with both machines (hopefully all three if we keep the 250) but we are still talking with xerox about the details.

Service is huge with us. We've had problems with the 250 but we work it well past its "workload." Usually if service gives us a problem then we can resolve it with one easy call above service. I like being able to know who to call.

Our workload is about 50k (11x17) clicks a month. What that means for us is that some months we will only use 10k clicks but others will be 100k clicks. Our market goes hand in hand with the school year.

 

[Craig]

Here is a link to GraphExpo GRAPH EXPO, Commercial Printing, Offset, Digital, Converting, Variable Data Digital, Flexible Packaging, Wide Format Inkjet, Folding Carton, Mailing and Fulfillment, Digital Prepress/Workflow, Tag and Label, Corrugated Packaging If there is something you need, more than likely it will be there.

 

[Dave at clg]

Hello Daveco and others,
I'm also new to the forum so please be patient if I don't follow the correct protocal. My company is going through the painful testing and comparing of the Canon 7000VP and the Xerox 7000AP. The owner (the man that ulimately has to pay for the machine) insist the quality of the Canon is superior. I, the one that needs run the machine, feel that the quality is very comparable. I also feel that Xerox knows the production demands in print shop versus Canon in an office. (This is only a gut feeling) As far as that is concerned The canon sales team is starting to dump on how bad the Xerox is. I can't run full size sheets in all the drawers-Wrong, It can't duplex over 80# cover-Wrong, and that it doesn't have an internal calbration checking every sheet that goes through-Wrong.
So I would like to know what experiences you are having looking at the two machines.

 

[lfelton]

Hello Daveco and others,
I'm also new to the forum so please be patient if I don't follow the correct protocal. My company is going through the painful testing and comparing of the Canon 7000VP and the Xerox 7000AP. The owner (the man that ulimately has to pay for the machine) insist the quality of the Canon is superior. I, the one that needs run the machine, feel that the quality is very comparable. I also feel that Xerox knows the production demands in print shop versus Canon in an office. (This is only a gut feeling) As far as that is concerned The canon sales team is starting to dump on how bad the Xerox is. I can't run full size sheets in all the drawers-Wrong, It can't duplex over 80# cover-Wrong, and that it doesn't have an internal calbration checking every sheet that goes through-Wrong.
So I would like to know what experiences you are having looking at the two machines.

Hi Dave - just a suggestion, but maybe start a new thread? That way people just reading the title would see something like "Canon 7000VP vs Xerox 7000AP, share experiences?". Sorry if this is bum advice - I'm pretty new to posting on forums also

 

[X33]

there's always that difference between the "money" guy and the "operations" guy

 

[Dave at clg]

New Guy

New Guy

Hi Dave - just a suggestion, but maybe start a new thread? That way people just reading the title would see something like "Canon 7000VP vs Xerox 7000AP, share experiences?". Sorry if this is bum advice - I'm pretty new to posting on forums also

Thanks, I will repost and see what happens.

 

[Chris van Eeden]

Davco,
I am in the same boat as you - got a 250 and am very fond of it, but I need to upgrade. Was on the verge of buying a 5000AP but price is just out of reach. What did Xerox quote you for the 700 with two high cap feeders?

The 700 has not been launched in South Africa yet, but it seems that it might be worth waiting for it.

By the way - has anybody tried to run NCR through a 700? I do a fair amount of Invoice books with full colour on all the copies, but the Docucolor 250 does not feed the CFB at all. Runs OK with the CB and CF though.