Replacing the ol' Docu250

[Davco]

Well, I'm glad I found this forum and will be reading like a madman over the next couple of weeks. We have a docu250 that is too small for our current production. We have called a few people up and will be meeting with companies for a few days while we discuss the best machine for our needs. Right now the list is xerox, hp, ikon (canon machines).

We average 50k/month on 11x17 60lb offset. We also run alot of 80 lb cover. Sometimes we branch out and run some 80 gloss text or 80 lb gloss cover. Our current machine is pretty good for the 60lb stuff but gets very slow when we go with heavier stock...especially since we have to manually duplex it.

Ikon came out and gave us the run down on the canon 7000vp and the CPP650 (2 machines joined) and really pushed the 7000. On paper it looks great but everything looks great coming out of a salesman's mouth and everything looks good on paper.

I'm sure xerox will push the docucolor 5000.

I'm starting to read up and see what people are using on here and what kind of feedback there is on these machines.

 

[BrentHals]

Sounds like you run quite a bit of heavy stock, and quite a bit of gloss. The 7000VP will run the heavy stock and gloss stock without ever slowing down.

One thing to remember, if your leaving the DC250 behind you're changing the image quality.
The DC5000 uses fuser oil and will be shiny.
The CPP650 will run in a matte finish similar to your DC250, but the depth of color and overall quality may not be to your liking.

 

[Davco]

The salesman brought us some samples of a file that we provided and the 7000 had somewhat better quality but the colors weren't right. The cpp650 had the colors dead on but the quality wasn't as good (still ok though). Of course, I doubt if they spent alot of time trying to get it perfect.....I dunno.

Tuesday, we will be going to see a CPP650 in action. We might set up a time for the 7000 but that would require a 2-3 hour drive.

We are meeting with Xerox on Wed to talk about their recommendations for our needs.

I do like the 7000's claim to run 70 ppm on any kind of paper stock.

BrentHals, do you currently run any of these machines?

 

[Craig]

I have the 8000AP installed December of 07 with over 600K on it now. As far as your colors, you will have a hard time unless the machine, front end and your monitor are calibrated. The colors on the 8000AP match Pantone Bridge almost dead on. Front to back registration is 0.5mm and my color shift from first to last is less than 2dE.

 

[doubting_thomas]

From what I understand, the Xerox 5000 has about the
same print engine that the 250 has. There will be a shorter
learning curve when switching machines and rips (if you
replace your rip). The 5000 is a bit slower than the
7000 of course. You can read the rest of my posts
here, and test the machines out, but I've always been a
fan of Xerox boxes.

 

[random]

250 is the same as a 5000? Who would be insulted with that comment? The 250 owner proud of his oil free finish or the 5000 owner who has just realized he bought a office machine with a 2060 bed.

 

[Davco]

Yeah, the 250 does have the same engine as the 5000. We meet with xerox tomorrow and will discuss our options.

The funny things is that Ikon was pushing the canon 7000 against the xerox 5000. It seems like (based of these forums) the 7000 is a full production machine and the xerox 5000 is a mid production machine. It looks like they are comparing apples to oranges instead of apples to apples. I think they should have compared the canon 7000 versus xerox 8000.

 

[X33]

they usually compare apples vs oranges because that's all they have to offer.

Xerox has the largest portfolio of Production Color in the market :

Light Production : DocuColor 242/252/260
Mid Production : Xerox 700, DocuColor 5000AP
High Production : Xerox DocuColor 7000AP / 8000AP
Really High Production : Xerox iGen3 / iGen4 90/110
COLOR Continous Feed : Xerox 490/980
In R&D : ConceptColor 220 (you can google this one)

Digital Printing: Production Printers, Digital Printing Press Models, Large Format Printers

 

[Damianc]

Canon has the C7000VP, the C6000VP, and the C6000. Speed, toner capacity, and power requirements are the only differences. Respectively, 70, 60, and 60ppm, but the C6000 slows down on heavier stock. C7000VP, C6000VP, 70,60 ppm all weights 64 to 300gsm, C6000, 60ppm 64gsm to 135gsm; 136 to 220gsm, 52ppm, 220gsm to 300gsm 35ppm.

From Xerox 8000AP blurb:"An 'All Weights' mode sets the press to run at 80 pages per minute regardless of paper stock, weight or type, up to 300 gsm An added benefit of the 'All Weights' mode is a more matte appearance of the output. A 'Single Weight' mode, which varies the print speed based on the paper stock, lets print providers achieve a glossier look and feel. . . . jobs such as signage or short-run magazines and catalogs may require a glossier look and feel while others, such as photo books, marketing collateral or hybrid offset/digital applications, require a more matte appearance."

The shortcoming of a "more matte" look is presented as a "benefit," rather than a limitation. The Canon's "gloss optimization" matches the paper, matte or coated, at full speed regardless of paper weight (except the C6000, which slows above 135gsm). If you want a glossy look output on the Xerox on the heaviest stock, you have to slow it down. The Xerox 5000 slows to 32ppm at 220gsm to 300gsm, and above 220gsm must be manually duplexed.

The Xerox 5000 also has registration of 1.0mm, whereas the Xerox 8000/7000, and the Canons have .5mm. The proper comparison of like models and pricing would be the C6000 versus the Xerox 5000. The KM6500 is in a different league, in my opinion.

 

[Whygen]

For whats its worth I have just tested all of the above machines - I have just been speaking to a friend who has the Canon 7000VP and Xerox 5000 and the quality off the Canon is superior in all ways...The quality of the km 6501 Creo IC304+ RIP is great and in my opinion on par with the Canon - the KM however struggles to duplex on heavier weights - Canon will reliably duplex 320gsm all day...

 

[X33]

just to clarify, the Xerox DocuColor 5000 does not exist anymore.

the new model is the Xerox DocuColor 5000AP ... it's not the same quality as the old DC5000, you need to see an "AP" version. It will automatically duplex reliable up to 300gsm without slowing down the engine.

 

[Davco]

For whats its worth I have just tested all of the above machines - I have just been speaking to a friend who has the Canon 7000VP and Xerox 5000 and the quality off the Canon is superior in all ways...The quality of the km 6501 Creo IC304+ RIP is great and in my opinion on par with the Canon - the KM however struggles to duplex on heavier weights - Canon will reliably duplex 320gsm all day...

What is the heavier weights that the KM struggles to duplex. It is very important that we can auto duplex 220 gsm.

I talked about the Xerox 5000 today and really like it. Plus they said we could keep the 250. Price is close to what Ikon is offering two KM C6500 (Ikon 650) with individual servers and bookmaking with trimmer. I feel like I could trust Xerox no matter what but I'm a little worried about Ikon b/c I don't have a history with them.

We will hopefully be talking about a HP machine soon.....the saga continues.

 

[Davco]

just to clarify, the Xerox DocuColor 5000 does not exist anymore.

the new model is the Xerox DocuColor 5000AP ... it's not the same quality as the old DC5000, you need to see an "AP" version. It will automatically duplex reliable up to 300gsm without slowing down the engine.

Hmmm.....Xerox is offering a 5000 that is labeled a "demo" and the price is pretty good. I didn't know they don't exist...maybe thats why it is a demo. We talked about the 5000AP and like the fact that doesn't slow on the heavier weights but I think the price might be too far off for us.

 

[X33]

when Xerox has demo gear sale, prices are really low and attractive; the units usually dissapear really fast (at least in my area) ... there are probably DC5000 in a few Xerox demo rooms ready for sale.

on another token, about the IKON proposal, are you aware that IKON has been bought by Ricoh? would you really consider purchasing a KM unit, sold by IKON, who is now own by Ricoh, and who knows what will happen with Service down the road? by the way, what Ricoh knows about Production Color?

 

[Davco]

when Xerox has demo gear sale, prices are really low and attractive; the units usually dissapear really fast (at least in my area) ... there are probably DC5000 in a few Xerox demo rooms ready for sale.

on another token, about the IKON proposal, are you aware that IKON has been bought by Ricoh? would you really consider purchasing a KM unit, sold by IKON, who is now own by Ricoh, and who knows what will happen with Service down the road? by the way, what Ricoh knows about Production Color?

I found out about Ricoh buying IKON today. It is a little scary. We don't know alot about Production Color because we've just used the docu250....so I'm not sure who Ricoh is. Give some insight .

 

[random]

and who knows what will happen with Service down the road? by the way, what Ricoh knows about Production Color?

Personally I think Ricoh will be a force to be reckoned with as they have fingers in other pies and have made some partnerships IBM Press room - 2007-01-25 IBM and Ricoh to Create Joint Venture Printing Systems Company - United States that prove they mean business. Ricoh (from what I have seen) only have the c900 on the horizon and the c6500 is not made for this market and we won't have anything that speed until next year so the c6500 will complement there range.

What does Ricoh know about color? Ask your Analyst he will be working for them in six months. You don't just learn the complex colour market you buy it.

The c6500 can easily beat a 5000 so I wouldn't buy one new or not. The AP (Amended Printer) probably has all the bugs fixed but I would go in with a really crappy file like something that has 20% YMCK background with white text surrounded with process black. The drums in the 5000 are tiny and have too much latency so you will see ghosting text and banding. If your determined to go xerox wait for the 700.

What is the heavier weights that the KM struggles to duplex. It is very important that we can auto duplex 220 gsm.

220 is no problem, spec is 256.

 

[Craig]

Davco,
You'll have to excuse Random, he is employed by KM (Krappy Machines) and his opinions are somewhat slanted since they sign his paychecks. Also he doesn't "own" anything he is a service tech. therefore, he never has to foot the bill for the lease/maintenance nor does he have to deal with customers demands. You see he lives in a sterile environment and can only regurgitate what he is being spoon fed by his comrades. I doubt he has ever "operated" a c6500 other than to make a few test prints and tell his customer "it's fixed again".

Now all this is not to say his "opinions" are invalid, you just need to see what side of the fence he is on. I feel in this forum if you are employed by a manufacture all of your posts should include some sort of disclaimer stating such.

By the way his avitar is just clip art from KM that he pretends to own, my 8000AP is the one on my shop floor that I own. If you notice the print engine on his little KM is tiny, it's all just feeder and finishers.

KM c6500 print engine 31" x 39.1" x 41.63" - Weight 794 lbs (tight, tiny paper paths, lot's of plastic)
Xerox 5000 print engine 100" x 29.8" x 57.5" - Weight 1650 lbs (long sweeping paper paths, lot's of metal)

The KM c6500 will make a great business color machine and will perform quite well in the office, there is a reason why Xerox and Canon's are more expensive.... they are production machines

Do yourself a favor don't shop by price alone, LOOK hard at ALL the options and make a decision based on the past history as well as how is this thing going to run after you put some volume on it. Talk to Canon about the 6000 series, that's more apples to apples with the 5000.

As for Ricoh, I can't comment on their color machines but I OWN (not pretend to own) an MP9000 almost 3 years old and has 8,672,428 on the meter, we average about 56,000 clicks a day when in full production. Our highest months volume is 910,445.

 

[Davco]

I've been reading the threads and watching you two go back and forth and it looks pretty fun.


I'm going to put up a list of things that we need and list how each machine (2 KM6500 vs 1 Docu5000+Docu250) meet our needs and then we can go from there.

Give me time.

Oh Yeah, no one has brought up the Canon c6000. Ikon only brought up the 7000vp.

 

[Craig]

The Canon IP 7000vp is more inline with my 8000AP. Your better comparison is the 6000vp vs the 5000AP. I read your concern with the ability to duplex 220+ gsm and I can without a doubt say that the Canon and Xerox will be more reliable in the long haul than the KM. All you need to do is look at the paper paths th KM is short and tight, vs the long sweeping paths of the Xerox and Canon. It's just common sense the tighter you need to make the paper go, the more likely it will jam. Again there is a reason the KM is less money, it's an inflated office copier not a production press. Also known as fast plastic.

I believe someone said you can put lipstick on a pig, but in the end you still have a pig.

 

[Davco]

The Canon IP 7000vp is more inline with my 8000AP. Your better comparison is the 6000vp vs the 5000AP. I read your concern with the ability to duplex 220+ gsm and I can without a doubt say that the Canon and Xerox will be more reliable in the long haul than the KM. All you need to do is look at the paper paths th KM is short and tight, vs the long sweeping paths of the Xerox and Canon. It's just common sense the tighter you need to make the paper go, the more likely it will jam. Again there is a reason the KM is less money, it's an inflated office copier not a production press. Also known as fast plastic.

I believe someone said you can put lipstick on a pig, but in the end you still have a pig.

yeah, I understand about the 7000vp competing with the 8000ap. Unfortunately, we don't have the volume or money to justify either machine. Ikon compared the 7000vp to the 5000 and I had to have a stern talk with them about it yesterday because it is misleading.

Xerox just offered to give us two 700's for close to the price of two km6500. Personally and currently, this looks like a no brainer for us....xerox is ahead.