Sappi paper problems

[tmason]

We are having surface issues with three different Sappi papers. McCoy Gloss cover, McCoy Silk cover and Opus dull cover. On one sheet the printing is perfectly smooth and on the next sheet it looks like we backed off the impression cylinder. When we hold up the sheet to examine, it's clearly a surface defect.

Is anyone else having this issue?

 

[Green Printer]

What has your paper merchant said? Over the last forty years I have seen similar problems with just about every brand we have used. Call the merchant, the mill rep will come out and try to give you some bull. Hold you ground save all the wrappers and ctns and numbers. Show the samples of the defect. You will get a credit for the paper and possibly some presstime. This is pretty much standard procedure.
We have been involved with helping merchants sort out claims. A high percentage of the claims are pressman ignorance looking to blame someone for their problems and the claims are denied. Sometimes the claims are allowed because of politics.
If you have a history of many complaints you we will be treated as crying wolf and your chances of compensation dwindle.. If you have a history of every claim being fully documented no questioned asked your chances of being compensated are very high.
Only once in forty years have we been denied on a compalint of slow ink drying. An indpendent lab hired by the paper company said our TVI was too high. We said it was stryene in the coatings. After this episode was finished the sheets were checked and found to have a styrenated starch used in the coatings and the mill admitted that they had changed the coatings and the new formula was based on stryrenated starches in the coatings.

 

[tmason]

We know the routine and are not afraid to take it on. I want to know if anyone else is having this issue with these papers. These stocks are produced at the same mill on the same machine.

 

[Ti7]

Yep. Put a claim in on monday for McCoy Silk cover. Surface defects. Looked like craters in the stock. As usual the rep played dumb like it was the first time that he has seen the problem.

 

[jlind]

If it happens on one sheet but not every sheet, look for a pattern of every 4th or 5th sheet. This would indicate sheeting from multiple rolls, which is common. That is hard for the mill to deny as a claim. Document and photograph. SAPPI is a premium sheet and you should expect the BEST!
John Lind

 

[tmason]

No offense, we know how the process works. We need to hear from other printers who may be having this problem with these papers. Paper is a huge cost and it's all going downhill.

We know that we can file a claim and get our money for bad paper and press time but that does not help my production schedule.

Knowing there is a systemic problem from this mill will help us make better paper choices until this is resolved.

 

[RKS]

We had one complaint last week on McCoy Silk Cover. Craters in every other sheet. Also, lumps in the coating. Also, definately a two-sided sheet. One side was smooth, the other was very rough. We were lucky, I emailed the mill rep and an hour later the tech flew into O'Hare and was on-site while the job ran. He wasn't happy with the quality of the paper.
We've had 3 or 4 complaints over the past 6 months or so on McCoy and one on Opus.

 

[tmason]

Thanks RKS, this is exactly the feed back we are looking for.

 

[QualityPrint]

Yes... We had to pull a job due to these craters on one side of the sheet. Then put in back on with new paper and had pretty much the same thing. It's a shame that we as printers are held to certain standards when the foundation of our product (the paper) is so erratic.

 

[RGPW17100]

Hope Sappi figures it out. I want to bet 80 percent of our paper comes from them. Just got in a bunch of McCoy Gloss Cover. I told the press operator about this thread and they are going to check the stock closely before plating the job.

 

[tmason]

We had another job on 100# McCoy Silk cover, 20x26 last night. Pulled it due to poor surface quality and switched to HannoArt Silk and ran great.

Under close examination, the stock on one side is porous. The strange thing is, sometimes it prints fine and it does not show and other times it looks really bad.

We now have five papers from different lots with surface defects.
1. 100# McCoy Gloss Cover- 19x25
2. 100# McCoy Silk Cover 19x25- November Lot
3. 100# McCoy Slik Cover 19x25 - December Lot-tried Different lot to get job done-same problem
4. 100# McCoy Slik Cover 20x26 - January Lot
5. 80# Opus Dull Cover - December Lot

HannoArt looks great along with Endurance, Porcelain, Titan, Productolith. We have put these stocks in when we have problems and they print fine. 4C Process with and without coating.

 

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

McCoy sucks

McCoy sucks

OK, I will say it, McCoy sucks!, every time we run it we get blade marks or surface problems, I hate that people pay more for a "premium" sheet and it looks like crap, the street fighter sheets will out print it all day long...

 

[tmason]

Alright, the tech rep came in this morning and looked at our issues and the preliminary determination is bad paper. We are submitting sheets for detail analysis, but it's pretty obvious.

I must say, this guy was very helpful and did not shy aware from the problem. I am pleasantly surprised at the Sappi response so far. They seem to want the issue resolved as much as we do.

That being said, we learned that McCoy is intentionally made to have more surface texture than some other papers. It is designed to have a "tactical" feel and workability in the bindery as far as cracking on folds etc. Also this sheet is single coated in the manufacturing process vs. HannoArt which is triple coated. A triple coated sheet will always print smoother but is susceptible to cracking in the bindery due to the surface hardness.

We know McCoy has been better in the past and we just need a consistent printing surface on McCoy and we'll be fine. They are working on it and I will keep you all posted when I hear something.

In the mean time if anyone else sees this issue, please post it.

 

[damon]

Be wise to the oldest trick in the book

Be wise to the oldest trick in the book

Yep. Put a claim in on monday for McCoy Silk cover. Surface defects. Looked like craters in the stock. As usual the rep played dumb like it was the first time that he has seen the problem.

Same happened to me as well. Just like a typical lib, never want to fess up that it is their problem. When you take fiber out of the sheet and add calcium chloride (which is like a sponge, totally absorbs everything with no releasing agents) you will have problems. The price of paper contiues to increase and the quality continues to go down. Best way to resolve problem is to through the paper and them out, never to use again. But be-careful, they will switch out paper saying they have something better. All they will do is put a new label with a different name on the outside of the pallet of paper. Of course it will be the same paper, thinking we are like sheep willing to go along with this non-sense.

 

[damon]

As I had mentioned on another "Reply with Quote", the reason your McCoy and Hannoart is cracking is there is no fiber in sheets anymore. They have (paper mills) replaced fiber with "calcium chloride" which is like a sponge, and we all know what sponges do> suck everything up. Calcium Chloride does not allow for the sheet to have any releasing agents. Paper has increased in price and the quality has gone down hill. We have to all change our way in how we print, do to this fact.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Rubbish !

Rubbish !

Damon, You are talking Rubbish -- I suggest you learn about the Fundamentals of Papermaking



Regards, Alois

 

[damon]

mills have taken out the fiber in the sheets and added calcium chloride, which is from limerock. Limerock sucks everything in the sheet and allows for no release. The whole paper process is going down hill.

 

[damon]

I beg to differ Alois or is it Alonzo_ Facts are facts. You must be part of the problem if you agree everything is okay with how paper is being made. Theirs your facts. Alois. You must of voted for Obama!

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Wrong again !

Wrong again !

Damon,

You are still talking rubbish - you can't even get the name of the chemical correct !

In paper making the coating consists of Precipitated Calcium Carbonate - NOT Calcium chloride


Regards, Alois

 

[gordo]

Damon,

You are still talking rubbish - you can't even get the name of the chemical correct !

In paper making the coating consists of Precipitated Calcium Carbonate - NOT Calcium chloride

Regards, Alois

Damon, despite your rude comment, Alois is correct.

best, gordo