Side by side pages, is 10 the max?

[Gregg]

I've just stumbled upon something in ID that may be intentional in the code, but I can't seem to find anything that documents it.

I was hoping to put 13, 270mmW x 235mmH pages side by side. I am able to put 10 together but that appears to be ID's limit. See the attached screen-grab. When I try to move page 11 to the right of page 10 nothing happens.

I know I can make a single page doc that is 3510mmW (270x13) and just add 13 gutters, but I was trying to keep them as separate pages.

I am setting up a non-conventional picture book. It opens like an accordion, not like standard pages.

Any ideas/suggestions?

 

[pdan]

Ann Marie and/or David over at InDesignSecrets.com might find this interesting...?

 

[Al Ferrari]

Gregg,

1. Try doing that with a good professional imposition program such as Preps, or other.

2. Do you know of a bindery near you with a folder having 12 fold plates on the parallel unit? That cannot be done by placing units in tandem.

Al

 

[Gregg]

Hi, Al.

I don't have access to any imposition software, so trying to make it work in ID. The book will be printed and manufactured in China. I've spoken with the print vendor who has asked that the file be set-up this way. Now, I'm just trying to figure out how to actually set it up this way.

 

[Al Ferrari]

Well then one suggestion is to make two 5 page spreads and output a pdf of each. Then place these into a new ID page that is 10 pages wide.

Al

PS. Have you followed up on pdan's suggestion and contacted Ann Marie Concepcion or David Blatner?

 

[rich apollo]

I don't really understand why you want/need to set it up in 13 side-by-side pages, but you can do it in Illustrator.

Sounds like the printer hasn't done his homework. Ask him to send you a template.

 

[Al Ferrari]

Other softwares may exist, or be developed to have this capability.

But the software issue is much less interesting than the challenges presented by trying to accordion fold a large number of panels. It's not as simple as just adding more fold plates and rollers.

Those familiar with how buckle folding machines work will know that for each fold plate, it takes one roller pair to drive the traveling sheet into it and another pair to capture the buckle formed as the sheet hits the stop bar in that fold plate. The 2 pairs result from 3 rollers arranged in an "L" shape. In every pair driving the sheet into the next fold plate the gap must be set to positively drive the single sheet thickness following the already folded panels, but with a spring pressure that allows the passage of the folded panels. Now, as the number of already folded panels increases, the decreased spring pressure for that feed roller pair diminishes the effectiveness of the driving function of that pair so that the driving of the single sheet becomes inconsistent. This is especially true considering that a large number of pre folded panels requires more driving force than a smaller one to be pushed into the fold plate even when the fold plate gap is increased, and may be more important for wide panels than for narrow ones.

This is a practical matter affected by factors such as paper thickness and stiffness among others. I do not know the limit of how many panels can be accordion folded, but I would venture a guess that 10 panels may be impractical. Has the Chinese printer provided samples of such folded pieces?

Al

 

[Al Ferrari]

Here is a map printer claiming 16 parallel accordion folds capability. That's 17 2 sided panels!

parallel accordion folds | MapPrinter

See the 5th paragraph below the video at that page. The video is interesting but does not show the claimed capability.

This time I am glad to be wrong, but my analysis in the previous post still stands.

Al

 

[onwsk8r]

Check in to pharma folders. I believe the standard pharma fold has 12 thicknesses of paper in the finished product.

 

[Al Ferrari]

Thanks for your input, but that probably includes some right angle folds and is not 12 thicknesses of parallel accordion folds, and pharmaceutical inserts are usually produced on light weight stocks such as 30 or 40 lb.

Al

 

[motormount]

Well Al,since it will be printed in China you should consider the manual folding option as well!

;-)

 

[Gregg]

I'm back at the office now and had a closer look at the printer's dummy. Here are the specs:
Stock: 200gsm woodfree
26 panels concertina folded (13 "front side panels" and 13 "back side" panels)
1 panel pasted down to IFC
Lining pasted down to IBC

@ Al, thanks for that folding explanation and the video you shared. Very helpful in getting a better understanding of what's involved here.

 

[Al Ferrari]

By that method the only limitation is the length os the sheet!

Al

 

[Gregg]

My "accordion" description was inaccurate, is that correct?

 

[Al Ferrari]

I musical instruments, a concertina is a type of small accordion. So I think in folding, they are the same, especially since the process makes the product smaller or more compact.

Any musicians at PrintPlanet?

Al

 

[motormount]

By that method the only limitation is the length os the sheet!

Al

Totally agree,since there is no limit on the number of workers they can use or in the -ridiculous- cost of labor they can set!

 

[motormount]

My "accordion" description was inaccurate, is that correct?

We use a very similar-musical derived- description down here,and even though it's completely wrong,everybody understands what is it about!

 

[Gregg]

By that method the only limitation is the length os the sheet!

Al

Al, was it my specs that led to you this conclusion, or was it motormount's assumption that this would be hand-folded?

 

[Al Ferrari]

Neither actually. By simple logic it is plain to see that doing it manually, the only other limitation besides the length of the sheet would be patience.

Al

 

[Gregg]

Neither actually. By simple logic it is plain to see that doing it manually, the only other limitation besides the length of the sheet would be patience.

Al

I can't say for sure that it would be hand-folded. I'll find out...