Spot color matching?

[MacDaddy]

I have a fellow printer friend that runs envelopes and did a job for a client two spot colors one was 405 grey. They came back weeks after job and are refusing job because they say the grey is off. He showed me and it is very close
I would say it is slightly darker then 404 grey but this is just text and man not much different. I believe it is acceptable but not clear on what the industry standard allows. If you only showed me only 405 swatch I would agree that its a match.

 

[gordo]

I have a fellow printer friend that runs envelopes and did a job for a client two spot colors one was 405 grey. They came back weeks after job and are refusing job because they say the grey is off. He showed me and it is very close
I would say it is slightly darker then 404 grey but this is just text and man not much different. I believe it is acceptable but not clear on what the industry standard allows. If you only showed me only 405 swatch I would agree that its a match.

A couple of thoughts...
AFAIK there is no "industry standard" tolerance for matching a spot color. That's something that individual print buyers and print suppliers need to agree on between themselves.
The 405 may appear darker because it is used for text against a white(?) background - the simultaneous contrast effect (small area of color surrounded by a larger area of a contrasting color). It's why black text looks black even though it may actually be just a dark grey.
Typically an ink draw down for color ink mix approval would include some text which would show this effect prior to printing the job. In this case a PMS 404 might have looked more like 405 when printed as text.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Usually in this case have the customer spec what color they expect it to be and re run the job. Bad publicity is worth more than $100 in labor and materials. That is, providing the run was 2,500 or less.

 

[MacDaddy]

No the envelopes cost $2,300 dollars no sample to go by one of those need it now jobs. And really it is so close 99 people out of 100 couldn't tell. I still think it looks good.

 

[old guy]

if 99 out of a 100 see it as good then its good. but even at $2300 you have to determine the customers worth long term. maybe try to find a compromise like splitting the cost of a redo or making up the loss on future work a little at a time. good luck

 

[maac]

I know this won't help I remember a number of years ago a company I worked for at that time ran a job and the color was like (pantone 290) light blue a back ground color on the sheet. The pressman ran the job with his pantone book I guess he had that book for a number of years. Well the customer came in later with his brand new pantone book and game over. Maybe you'll luck out and the customer will have the old book.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

No two swatch books match, the guide is for ink mixing, not visual results. The closest thing that we have to a “fixed target” (even if unofficial) are licensed published colour number values from Pantone (usually Lab are the most commonly referenced values).


Stephen Marsh

 

[gordo]

I know this won't help I remember a number of years ago a company I worked for at that time ran a job and the color was like (pantone 290) light blue a back ground color on the sheet. The pressman ran the job with his pantone book I guess he had that book for a number of years. Well the customer came in later with his brand new pantone book and game over. Maybe you'll luck out and the customer will have the old book.

From the description, I still think this is a simultaneous contrast issue. PMS 405 is just Pantone Black and Transparent White so color shouldn't be the issue (unless the OP used their Black which may have a different hue)

Here's how that looks: http://web.mit.edu/persci/gaz/gaz-teaching/flash/contrast-movie.swf

The key issue for matching Pantone colors is: effective communication.

When any job using spot colors is quoted it is critical that the sales rep/CSR/printer establish the criteria for the match. Is it the customer's swatchbook, the printshop's swatchbook, a drawdown, a previous printed piece, or a reference Lab value? That information should be part of the job docket so that everyone is on the same page as to the expectations for the project.

 

[old guy]

From the description, I still think this is a simultaneous contrast issue. PMS 405 is just Pantone Black and Transparent White so color shouldn't be the issue (unless the OP used their Black which may have a different hue)

The key issue for matching Pantone colors is: effective communication.

When any job using spot colors is quoted it is critical that the sales rep/CSR/printer establish the criteria for the match. Is it the customer's swatchbook, the printshop's swatchbook, a drawdown, a previous printed piece, or a reference Lab value? That information should be part of the job docket so that everyone is on the same page as to the expectations for the project.

amen gordo

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

We use ink drawdowns from our IGT proofer on the same stock to be printed that have been matched to our PMS book with a Delta of under 1, we send these to our customer and do not proceed until this is signed off by the customer. We send 5 drawdowns to be signed, they keep one we give one to our ink people (who have the original formula) the press has one and we keep a couple for ourselves in case we lose one or it gets damaged.
The signed customer drawdown is entered into our colour system and the press uses both visual and spectro to match the job during the run. We like to keep our Delta's under 2. Not perfect but everyone is singing off of the same songsheet and we get very few colour rejections using this method

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Weeks after job is pretty fishy. It is, in my opinion, in the responsibility of the customer to immediately notify you if something is wrong. Before you even think of reprinting, get them to show you the color they want and show them how off you can expect (also the industry standards) to get during that run so that everyone is on the same page. If they cry fowl, then they have to play by your rules if they want to reject your product. Cross your t's and dot your i's before you re-run or else they will attempt to burn you again.

He raises a pretty good question, what WOULD be the industry standard for running a PMS job? That's about half or more of our volume and have never had a job rejected, but then again our pressman is amazing so it might just be him.

 

[old guy]

we do 30 plus pms colors daily. have never used electronics to measure. how would you even check the density of 8 point helvetica light on an envelope?

 

[MacDaddy]

we do 30 plus pms colors daily. have never used electronics to measure. how would you even check the density of 8 point helvetica light on an envelope?

Right I tried my printer friend brought over the envelopes and I tried and couldn't get a measurement.

I found out they had 11 projects to launch this campaign and they had issues with 8 of them.

 

[chevalier]

A couple of thoughts...
AFAIK there is no "industry standard" tolerance for matching a spot color. That's something that individual print buyers and print suppliers need to agree on between themselves.

Nailed it. Our ink drawdowns folders spell out that what we hold ourselves to if the buyer doesn't supply their own specifications up front.

Typically an ink draw down for color ink mix approval would include some text which would show this effect prior to printing the job. In this case a PMS 404 might have looked more like 405 when printed as text.

We've discovered that many times the lab can produce drawdowns that aren't achievable in the press room and vice versa (typically volume control). It seems to get to be more of "gray area" (honhonhon! ) as more technical coatings and effects get involved too.

 

[dabob]

IMHO . . . they had issues with 8 of 11 pieces for the project . . looks to me to be looking for a discount . . . that being said there is a way to not have this issue, its called a press check - if you have a customer who's color needs to be "spot on" (and we have more than a few) they need to be on the spot to approve the color. Other than that we also keep a "color standard" file for those customers that show idea, light, and dark allowable variances and have the customer initial that for future runs of "their" color.

And as a postscript, once a long long time ago when we only had a 2 color SORMZ we had a 7 over 6 color job - well with the 2 color it required numbers passes and the job would get racked, stacked, loaded, racked, stacked and reloaded several times. The cover was a deep purple process build and with all the shuffling of the loads we ended up with some that were more red some that were right on and some that were more blue. We didn't really look at that issue when we boxed them up for delivery. Less than a week later we were called and told to pick up the job it was no good. We went out to talk with them and when the boxes were opened you could see the red ones, the blue ones, and the purple ones very easily . . . our solution - we took the job back and spent a weekend sorting them out into three color ranges and then putting them back in the boxes arranged by hue. Waited a couple of weeks and redelivered the "fresh run" - they loved it . . . .

 

[easiprint]

And as a postscript, once a long long time ago when we only had a 2 color SORMZ we had a 7 over 6 color job - well with the 2 color it required numbers passes and the job would get racked, stacked, loaded, racked, stacked and reloaded several times. The cover was a deep purple process build and with all the shuffling of the loads we ended up with some that were more red some that were right on and some that were more blue. We didn't really look at that issue when we boxed them up for delivery. Less than a week later we were called and told to pick up the job it was no good. We went out to talk with them and when the boxes were opened you could see the red ones, the blue ones, and the purple ones very easily . . . our solution - we took the job back and spent a weekend sorting them out into three color ranges and then putting them back in the boxes arranged by hue. Waited a couple of weeks and redelivered the "fresh run" - they loved it . . . .

The art of creative packing - got me out of a few problems in the past!