Testing press colour makeready performance standard

[Deleted member 16349]

Now at the trade shows, we see some fantastically quick makereadies where a press goes from one job to another in minutes. This is impressive but it can also be staged to look a lot better than what the real everyday performance would be.

I think it would be very interesting to have the printout of the ink key positions for these demonstrated jobs. It could be quite easily set up to show great performance when in fact not much was done. As an example, if the ink key plots for say three different jobs tend to look very similar, well then that is like printing the same job three times. Not much of a test.

I think it would be interesting if the industry had some standard test jobs for testing the performance of colour makeready. These jobs could be designed so that it tests the full range of performance of the press. There would be high coverage and low coverage in the same plate of the same job and coverage could go from high to low to high in the same ink key position. Screens could be mixed with solids and high and low solids next to each other to test for starvation ghosting.

Basically with some knowledge of what are the most difficult conditions to print in an offset press and the sequential combinations that are difficult, this could be used to develop a set of plates for Standard Press Colour Makeready Performance Test jobs.

Then the test could be to get the solid density patches into a range of +/- 0.05 pts of the target density. This could be tested for fully automated systems, where an operator does not adjust or for a manual adjustment.

The test would then measure time and set up sheets to get to in tolerance for a total of say three jobs. Also the cost of technology can be in the evaluation.

Some kind of standard test like this could give printers an independent way to evaluate different presses and related technologies.

It would also give the press manufacturers a target to pressure them to build better presses.

It would also help to inform the industry how the design of the technology affects performance. Hey, they might even have to start to understand the physics.

Just a thought.

 

[printerpete]

GATF Tests

 

[gordo]

You'd spoil all the fun.

best, gordon p

 

[Deleted member 16349]

You'd spoil all the fun.

best, gordon p

What, spoil the fun. No, I think it would be a lot of fun to watch press manufacturers worry about how their presses perform based on an independent and standard way to evaluate makeready performance.

Right now we seem to have press manufacturers judging and crowning themselves as "King of Makeready".

What a great way to teach print tech engineers and grads from RIT etc. Have them compete to see how they can make the best makeready based on a Standard set of jobs. It would really force them to think.

 

[Tahir]

Testing press colour makeready performance standard

i m agreed with erick . Presses should tell the true story of make ready , which happened to us in daily routine .

 

[stu]

But how do you define the perfect makeready? when all the densities are perfect across the sheet? but what's the tolerance? Who decides what is commercially acceptable?
And sure they could be a guide in a demo, but surely a cross section of the actual jobs is a better test for that company.
Plus I believe press manufacturers would design their presses just to pass the tests and that may not be indicative of their abililty to perform throughout the whole run for example.

Sorry to rain on your parade, as a demonstrator I relish a good challenge, but the surprise of NOT knowing what jobs potential customers will bring to a demo is far more exciting

 

[Deleted member 16349]

But how do you define the perfect makeready? when all the densities are perfect across the sheet? but what's the tolerance? Who decides what is commercially acceptable?
And sure they could be a guide in a demo, but surely a cross section of the actual jobs is a better test for that company.
Plus I believe press manufacturers would design their presses just to pass the tests and that may not be indicative of their abililty to perform throughout the whole run for example.

Sorry to rain on your parade, as a demonstrator I relish a good challenge, but the surprise of NOT knowing what jobs potential customers will bring to a demo is far more exciting

The idea is that a standard test composing of a few different job sets, would test the limits of the process and therefore would help be an indicator of how any job would run. If a press manufacturer would design to the test, they would basically be designing in the capability to print all jobs within those limits.

The goal is to develop presses so that they get to their density targets with the least amount of wasted paper and without anyone adjusting the ink settings.

The aim is not to challenge an experienced demonstrator or operator. The aim is to challenge better process design.

Yes, consistency during the run is important but that is proven with another test. I would say that if one can get the press designed so that it gets to the target densities without adjustments, that capability tends to imply that the problem of consistency has been solved. One can not have a process be predictable without it being consistent first. Consistency is a prerequisite for predictability.

It is not my parade. It is the industry's parade but they just don't know it yet.

 

[turbotom1052]

i think that very often press manufactures pad the results of mr times just as erik mentioned. then what happens is that shop owners buy these presses fully expecting them to deliver the same results in a production enviroment. pressure is put on the press operator to deliver these ultra quick makeready times that the shop owner has seen at the printing shows. all of the things that erik pointed out need to be accounted for in addition to a few other variables. press operators can only print as quick and match color as good as the plates that are given to him. if a press operator receives poor plates it could slow down these makereadys significantly. also im willing to bet that when a press manufacturer demos his product at a printing show you can be pretty certain that he will be putting his best foot forward as far as having a sheet of paper thats correct grain and that prints clean and with good holdout. the true test would be to try and simulate the conditions we all deal with in the real world. for some of it its crappy pre press profiles, bottom of the barrel paper and other cost saving measures. to me that is very often the state of our industry. if your a shop owner be honest with yourself about these things when you set your expectations for pressroom production. the job you save may very well be your own.

 

[GazKL440]

Manufacurers are never going to be able to properly simulate real world conditions tho, and at the end of the day they are desperately trying to sell a printing press. In a perfect world with everything in perfect order lightning make ready times are acheivable, but as Turbotom mentioned, its not a perfect world, and the variables he listed are ALWAYS on the negative side, ie they add up and rarely make your job easier

Job specifications also come to mind: I often have to break into long run canpaign work to do agency work. This will usually be 1000 run posters that have to be spot on, and usually in gangs of 3 or 4 at a time. The first one may take an hour or so to get right requiring blanket changes and maybe some other tweaks, and the rest are made ready and run in about 20 mins apiece. Then you get back onto the campaign job and with memorised profiling and digitalised pre sets, you can pretty much swap plates throw in a stack and be running in under 5 minutes.

I know you see manufacturers doing demo's with an amazing amount of short run make readies in an amazingly short period of time, but its a bit like when a press demonstrater spends a few days teaching you the ins and outs of a new press: When they leave you can run it fine, but throw in the demands of commercial printing and not everything is as rosy as they would have you believe.

 

[printerpete]

Manufacurers are never going to be able to properly simulate real world conditions tho, and at the end of the day they are desperately trying to sell a printing press. In a perfect world with everything in perfect order lightning make ready times are acheivable, but as Turbotom mentioned, its not a perfect world, and the variables he listed are ALWAYS on the negative side, ie they add up and rarely make your job easier

Job specifications also come to mind: I often have to break into long run canpaign work to do agency work. This will usually be 1000 run posters that have to be spot on, and usually in gangs of 3 or 4 at a time. The first one may take an hour or so to get right requiring blanket changes and maybe some other tweaks, and the rest are made ready and run in about 20 mins apiece. Then you get back onto the campaign job and with memorised profiling and digitalised pre sets, you can pretty much swap plates throw in a stack and be running in under 5 minutes.

I know you see manufacturers doing demo's with an amazing amount of short run make readies in an amazingly short period of time, but its a bit like when a press demonstrater spends a few days teaching you the ins and outs of a new press: When they leave you can run it fine, but throw in the demands of commercial printing and not everything is as rosy as they would have you believe.

Spot on Gaz.

And agency work can be soul destroying at best lol

 

[seejay]

Is there such a thing as a perfect press?

The issue as I see it is that every printer has a different work mix - it is this mix that dictates what the perfect spec for a press is. ie. a printer running long run work on very heavy stocks is likely to have different needs/priorities to one consistently running short run work on light stocks. for one printer very quick makeready may be a higher priority, whilst actual max running speeds may be higher for another.

A standard set of tests for each manufacturer would allow the impartial observer objective data that can be used to establish exactly what each press is capable of, as it would be comparing apples with apples. But this would be no substitute for actually testing a wide range of your own work in as close to simulated production conditions when making the purchasing decision. this can often paint a totally different picture to the makeready and run speed claims of manufacturers.

 

[turbotom1052]

press manufacturers have dealt with the varying needs of printing companies by making available different levels of automation as options in your press purchase. the long run sheetfed printer (if such a thing still exists) would be better spending his money on options like raised press heights, automated load conveyors, ink pumping stations, and high press speeds. where the short run printers would look more to things that would speed up makeready times like fully automated plate hanging and newer inking technologies that bring a sheet up to color and saleable quicker. to spend the money on a technology or an option that isnt really needed makes no sense to me. then there is the issue of press buyers that arent even sure of where the different technologies need to be applied. ive often been asked when working in a short run enviroment or on a low impression press run " why are you only running the press at 9000 sheets per hour. to get some people to understand that the time savings in running a 1500 sheet run at 13000 per hour as opposed to running it at 9000 per hour is a spit in the ocean can be difficult to do. but think about the chances of catching that hickey in the job in time to not spoil half the press run. theres a much better chance of getting that hickey early in the run if your press is running at 9000 per hour as opposed to running 13000 per hour

 

[edpressguy]

The perfect makeready

The perfect makeready

The perfect makereadys relys on what you choose as a press manufacture.They have specs that they recomend blankets, inks, water solution, plates ect. As well setting your curves. I worked in a all heidelburg shop. Make readys were quick and fast, and with the Xl 105 each operator can set there own curves for there way of printing. but alot the usual printing aspect play a role going from soild 4 color to tiny type, or vise vera. BIGGEST FACTOR THAT I HAVE FOUND THAT SLOWS ME DOWN IN PAST SHOPS THAT I HAVE WORKED IN IS...... ROLLER SETTINGS. If your a shop that allows maintance, you will find as i am on a 6 year old press, make readys will only get quicker. just my opinion

 

[edpressguy]

The perfect makeready

The perfect makeready

The perfect makereadys relys on what you choose as a press manufacture.They have specs that they recomend blankets, inks, water solution, plates ect. As well setting your curves. I worked in a all heidelburg shop. Make readys were quick and fast, and with the Xl 105 each operator can set there own curves for there way of printing. but alot the usual printing aspect play a role going from soild 4 color to tiny type, or vise vera. BIGGEST FACTOR THAT I HAVE FOUND THAT SLOWS ME DOWN IN PAST SHOPS THAT I HAVE WORKED IN IS...... ROLLER SETTINGS. If your a shop that allows maintance, you will find as i am on a 6 year old press, make readys will only get quicker. just my opinion