The Right Fountain Solution & Temperatures to Run - Somone Asked Me

[D Ink Man]

I told them.

The ph, conductivity and temperature are all dependent on which fountain solution supplier/product/type/1 step or 2 step, etc. The temperature of the fount (tank/pans) is dependent upon the press as well as the ambient temp./humidity of the pressroom. If a press operates without chilled vibrators, than the temperature of the fount may and probably will be different versus a press with improved temperature controls.

Remedies:

A) Get a reliable fountain solution provider who will put boots on ground inside your pressroom. Make sure he monitors the complete press via an audit, infeed to delivery. He should stay on your floor a minimum of 2 days, and gentlemen, that is just for one press. Purchase the etch/sub or fountain solution from a company that only manufactures, technical services and provides prompt delivery. DO NOT BUY FROM ANY INK PEOPLE, DEALER or OTHER SOURCE THAT IS OFFERING YOU TRIPLE MARTINI LUNCH. Stay away from any BUNDLED DEALS, or PIE IN THE SKY SCEMES that will require you to BUY from one company. Get yourself an individual TECHNICAL REP for every consumable product on your presses. INK TECH, FOUNTAIN SOLUTION TECH, BLANKET TECH, PLATE TECH, PRE-PRESS TECH., ROLLER TECH and PAPER TECH (this one is the hardest of all to find). Be cautious! Look for the signs of an unqualified technician. Here are some clues: WEARING A TIE, TOTING DONUTS, LONG SLEEVED SHIRTS, SMELLING OF COLOGNE, and TAKING LONGER THAN 1/2 HOUR for LUNCH. If the FAKE TECH is fake you may find him LEAVING YOUR FLOOR at LUNCH and going out with a non-printer TIE GUY from the OFFICE. If you detect any of these, THROW 'EM OUT, They are of NO HELP to your productivity or operational well being. Make sure "the boss" gets thi, so he will not be FOOLED also.

B) Keep in close contact with your press manufacturer. They will know exactly the proper running temperatures throughout your press based on which make and model you have.

That does it.

Happy Lithographing!
D Ink Man

 

[Green Printer]

I told them.
Get yourself an individual TECHNICAL REP for every consumable product on your presses. INK TECH, FOUNTAIN SOLUTION TECH, BLANKET TECH, PLATE TECH, PRE-PRESS TECH., ROLLER TECH and PAPER TECH (this one is the hardest of all to find).
D Ink Man

I have been in this situation and all i received was 7 tech reps pointing fingers saying it was the other reps problem. It solved absolutely nothing.

 

[D Ink Man]

Green Printer,

That is a shame that happened to you in your situation.

The PRINTER must command and demand that the technicians work PROACTIVELY together to solve issues and to ultimately reach ideal print and running conditions.

Kick out one or any number of the 7 if any even hint at pointing fingers or trying to place the blame on another vendor tech.

That wasn't the "7''s" fault, that was your faulr respectfully Green Printer for not recognizing what I have just explained.

Go to jail, do not pass go and do not collect $200.

Hope you have learned something going forward now from my teachings.

Experience is the BEST INGREDIENT.

D Ink Man

 

[Green Printer]

If the techs know their product and are not versed in the whole how can they intelligently give recommendations.

For instance if I would have you D Ink Man come in for ink and you totally disagree with the other techs what is your recourse. How would you solve the problem?

Lets say the ink is fine and will not work with that fountain solution or vice versa the fountain solution is fine and the ink will not work with the fountain solution. Who's recommendation do you go with and who is going to cover the expenses of the jockeying around. The techs get paid no matter what the out come.

 

[D Ink Man]

I will make it work. It takes experience, knowledge, life skills and knowing who, what, why and where you are working with to achieve a targeted goal. In this case it would be optimum run and print press performance for your opeartion.

You need to demand it, recognize it and then and only then will you cherish it. It is more difficult to find and form these relationships, but it can still be done. PM me please if you need further advice of good players, techs based on you locality.

Trust me Green Printer, please trust me for a moment, even if just for that moment.

Why?

Because I am,

D Ink Man

 

[Lukew]

A rep for each different consumable be it ink, fount, plate, sundries = a nightmare
How many times has a printer heard from a rep " we sells tonnes of this without this problem, it must be the ##### from the other company causing the issue. We sell ##### give it a go it will solve the issue"
Your left playing piggy in the middle as each rep blames the others product & if you don't make the switch you go round in circles.

If I have an ink, fount, sundries from one rep he has no one to point the finger at if there is an issue and its not caused by a machine issue. It is his job to help solve the problem if and when one arises, but he should only be called upon once you have ruled out a machine issue be it rollers, blanket settings etc.

 

[gordo]

The key is to get the ink man and fount man in the same room at the same time to sort out the issues.

gordo

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Pressroom Variables -- Print Quality

Pressroom Variables -- Print Quality

Hello fellow Lithographers,

What is the most important step in the production of a quality printed product ?

Answer: Delivery end of the Press. Here the culmination of almost all of the production

steps appear. It is the marriage of inks, paper and all the intermediate processes that

creates an excellent, a mediocre or an unacceptable result. Unfortunately for the Press Crew.



Regards, Alois

 

[D Ink Man]

A rep for each different consumable be it ink, fount, plate, sundries = a nightmare
How many times has a printer heard from a rep " we sells tonnes of this without this problem, it must be the ##### from the other company causing the issue. We sell ##### give it a go it will solve the issue"
Your left playing piggy in the middle as each rep blames the others product & if you don't make the switch you go round in circles.

If I have an ink, fount, sundries from one rep he has no one to point the finger at if there is an issue and its not caused by a machine issue. It is his job to help solve the problem if and when one arises, but he should only be called upon once you have ruled out a machine issue be it rollers, blanket settings etc.

It sounds perhaps like a victim of the 'Bundled Deal'.

Once you go this route and your company falls for that so attractive up front pricing deal for all the consumables to be provided from one source, you have already taken the leap from the cliff. And sorry, we don't have wings, so you are going to end up in a splat from the jump.

So many accountants, can we call them bean counters please, justify their existence by showing their superiors, CEO's, "LOOK AT HOW MUCH WE CAN SAVE". And many of the superiors and CEO's fall prey to this "SAVINGS MODULE". Many become close friends with the predator. They may sail together, restaurant together and some even become friends in inter family relationships.

But.... Where the problem lies is after you have agreed and 'Signed on the Dotted Line'. One, three and I suppose even 5 year agreements are consummated to use these consumables. Now while the salesboy and the CEO are boating, eating and going to a relative's Bar Mitzvah, the pressman and crews are still stuck in the rotating cylinder environment trying to produce high quality lithographic print pieces that are to be sold to the print buyer. So, a problem arises, ha ha! And gentlemen there is one thing I can promise when you are doing offset print work. YOU WILL ALWAYS RUN INTO PROBLEMS.

Now is where the fun starts. Case example:

Pressroom has been running the Bundled Products for a couple of weeks and they run into a major problem. You all pick the problem, it doesn't matter. Remember, litho is the most complex combination of variables in printing, as well as most any other thing. If you want to include brain surgery and rocket science, I still believe LIHTO is more complex. If you need explanation, I can do that further into the discussion. Ok, it's late Friday and this this problem occurs. So what does the pressroom manager or pressman do? He calls the 1-800 number of the Bundler and what does he get?? The usual will be: 1) Please leave a message and we'll get right back with you. 2) The Bundle Boy calls back, but he already has plans for that evening, so he serves up his best dose of "Lip Service". 3) The Bundle Boy, says ' I understand', and we'll look into that sometime next week. 4) There will be any number of delays and excuses from him...and I certainly can come up with more. The best thing that might happen is the the Bundle Rep will visit your pressroom immediately, within a half hour. But guess what? He arrives with Pizzas for the entire pressroom in most cases. But perhaps, he is knowledgeable and recognizes the issues. Let's say it's ink and fount. He knows there is a problem, but he is not an expert enough to physically do anything about it. He may luck out and throw some Gum in the tank and vaseline in the ink. But I doubt that he chews Gum and I doubt his butt is sore enough to have the grease. Next thing he could do, would be to call his warehouse and try to get some alternate products off the shelf. Shipping guy might say, oh we are out of that, or you sure you want to use that, it's from 2007? So many possible snags the "BUNDLER" will run into, to try to fix a process that is COMPLEX.

What it boils down to is this gentlemen.

PRODUCT - TECHNICAL SERVICE - RESPONSE & PEOPLE is the foundation of what the printing marker was built on in the 20th century. This is when printing and particularly offset, enjoyed the most profitable times since existence. It is not less profitable now because of the diminishment of print. That is only a slight contributor. It is the GREED that has taken over our industries of print and turned it from the four aforementioned factors to one where the only thing that is important is the ever loving dollar. Most have forgotten how to make a dollar. If you study history, and see where we came from and where we are today, the realization becomes much easier to understand.

One More Time> "S E R V I C E" <with experience is the best ingredient to grow your businesses and wealth. Printing Economics 202.

D Ink Man

 

[Deleted member 16349]

So, a problem arises, ha ha! And gentlemen there is one thing I can promise when you are doing offset print work. YOU WILL ALWAYS RUN INTO PROBLEMS.



Remember, litho is the most complex combination of variables in printing, as well as most any other thing. If you want to include brain surgery and rocket science, I still believe LIHTO is more complex.

I would agree that there are always lots of opportunities for problems in offset printing.

I certainly do not agree with the idea that litho is more complex than brain surgery or rocket science. That is ridiculous. That kind of thinking just covers up the industry's lack of success in understanding and correcting some of the weaknesses in the process.

If offset was so complicated it would not be running in hundreds of thousands of presses all over the world and producing sellable products and giving a large number of people the opportunity to gain skills and income. How many brain surgeons are there and how long does it take to get them the skills required?

Of course experience and specific knowledge are very important to help solve some practical problems seen on press but that does not mean that at some time, some of these problems will be more fully understood and designed out of the process.

Frankly the idea that we should have to rely on highly experienced, skilled and know knowledgeable people to keep offset working properly is one of the reasons I think the process is losing out to digital printing.

To keep the process viable for the future we need to reduce the need for experts, consultants, and specialized services. Until then, printers need support but that should not be the goal for the future.

 

[D Ink Man]

I would agree that there are always lots of opportunities for problems in offset printing.

I certainly do not agree with the idea that litho is more complex than brain surgery or rocket science. That is ridiculous. That kind of thinking just covers up the industry's lack of success in understanding and correcting some of the weaknesses in the process.

If offset was so complicated it would not be running in hundreds of thousands of presses all over the world and producing sellable products and giving a large number of people the opportunity to gain skills and income. How many brain surgeons are there and how long does it take to get them the skills required?

Of course experience and specific knowledge are very important to help solve some practical problems seen on press but that does not mean that at some time, some of these problems will be more fully understood and designed out of the process.

Frankly the idea that we should have to rely on highly experienced, skilled and know knowledgeable people to keep offset working properly is one of the reasons I think the process is losing out to digital printing.

To keep the process viable for the future we need to reduce the need for experts, consultants, and specialized services. Until then, printers need support but that should not be the goal for the future.

Couple or few points to you the wise one, Erik..

1) I didn't know you were educated in brain surgery and rocket scienctry.

2) You my friend are a drawing board, chalkboard, so called expert in the process of Lithography.

3) However, stick you out in the field, the real world, and you wouldn't know which button to press on a Heidey 105 to start it.

4) What I offer is pure, practical application from many years of experience. Solving real time customer print issues, in timely fashion, whether it is a printability or runnabily problem is what I do. Again, this is what built the profitability of both the printer and the ink companies when it was being practiced.

5) Your 180 degree reply to what I wrote is insulting and it dramatically shows your true non-practical smarts about the printing industry.

My suggestion to you, would to be go back to your chalkboard, wipe off the lenses of your coke bottle glasses and continue to draw molecules and convince yourself you know something about printing offset.

Most Sincerely,

D Ink Man

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Couple or few points to you the wise one, Erik..

1) I didn't know you were educated in brain surgery and rocket scienctry.

2) You my friend are a drawing board, chalkboard, so called expert in the process of Lithography.

3) However, stick you out in the field, the real world, and you wouldn't know which button to press on a Heidey 105 to start it.

4) What I offer is pure, practical application from many years of experience. Solving real time customer print issues, in timely fashion, whether it is a printability or runnabily problem is what I do. Again, this is what built the profitability of both the printer and the ink companies when it was being practiced.

5) Your 180 degree reply to what I wrote is insulting and it dramatically shows your true non-practical smarts about the printing industry.

My suggestion to you, would to be go back to your chalkboard, wipe off the lenses of your coke bottle glasses and continue to draw molecules and convince yourself you know something about printing offset.

Most Sincerely,

D Ink Man

Mr. D, why is it you always seem to make personal attacks when confronted with different views?

 

[Green Printer]

The key is to get the ink man and fount man in the same room at the same time to sort out the issues.
recommendations
gordo

I couldn't agree more.

I have been involved with this many many times.
Have the ink man and fountain man in the pressroom at the same time.
Press is working perfectly. Wash up press take out ink put in new ink from the ink man presently in your pressroom start up press. Shut down press in after 1,000 impressions because the new ink either piled, picked,bad trap, high dot gain the list goes on and on.
Washup press change ink back to what you were using and 200 sheets later you are back to to your press working perfectly.
At this point the ink man says the fountain solution is the problem and he wasn't given a fair chance. My response is nothing was changed your ink is not compatible. I have done this test for over 15 different ink manufactures. They always ask what they must do to get our business. I tell them to study their notes review the data, press sheets, running speeds and all of the information they have gathered and let me know what you have found.
This is a continuous process going on since 1998. So far no ink companies has ever gotten back with an answer.

 

[D Ink Man]

Mr. D, why is it you always seem to make personal attacks when confronted with different views?

You have NO ANSWER to this one.

D

 

[D Ink Man]

I couldn't agree more.

I have been involved with this. Have the ink man and fountain man in the pressroom at the same time.
Press is working perfectly. Wash up press take out ink put in new ink from the ink man presently in your pressroom start up press. Shut down press in after 1,000 impressions because the new ink either piled, picked,bad trap, high dot gain the list goes on and on.
Washup press change ink back to what you were using and 200 sheets later you are back to to your press working perfectly.
At this point the ink man says the fountain solution is the problem and he wasn't given a fair chance. My response is nothing was changed your ink is not compatible. I have done this test for over 15 different ink manufactures. They always ask what they must do to get our business. I tell them to study their notes review the data, press sheets, running speeds and all of the information they have gathered and let me know what you have found.
This is a continuous process going on since 1998. So far no one has ever gotten back with an answer.

Have you had Printers Service aka Prisco involved yet?

Have I been on your floor involved yet?

My guess is a double NO-NO to both questions.

Sorry about your problems, Green Printer.

The answer is there.

Truly,
D

 

[Green Printer]

Have you had Printers Service aka Prisco involved yet?

Have I been on your floor involved yet?

My guess is a double NO-NO to both questions.

Sorry about your problems, Green Printer.

The answer is there.

Truly,
D

Prisco was unable to meet the environmental requirements.

Your company has been here.


Finding a competent second ink supplier has been inconvenient

 

[D Ink Man]

Prisco was unable to meet the environmental requirements.

Your company has been here.


Finding a competent second ink supplier has been inconvenient

Now we are learning a little bit more about your requirements Green.

You said Prisco was unable to meet the environmental requirements. Ha Ha! What are these so called environmental requirements and do they restrict you in your pressroom from what you can use. Please elaborate further for best, full understanding. By the way Prisco has very low VOC fount products that are of recent development if that is part of your restrictions? But please expound about these 'requirements'.

Who is 'my company'?

Inconvenient? Really, inconvenient and you belly ache about problems that have existed in your pressroom for 15 years?

Wow, I am getting a bit confused now.

Help me Green and help yourself. E X P O U N D Please.

D

 

[Green Printer]

Now we are learning a little bit more about your requirements Green.

You said Prisco was unable to meet the environmental requirements. Ha Ha! What are these so called environmental requirements and do they restrict you in your pressroom from what you can use. Please elaborate further for best, full understanding. By the way Prisco has very low VOC fount products that are of recent development if that is part of your restrictions? But please expound about these 'requirements'.

Who is 'my company'?

Inconvenient? Really, inconvenient and you belly ache about problems that have existed in your pressroom for 15 years?

Wow, I am getting a bit confused now.

Help me Green and help yourself. E X P O U N D Please.

D

Verbal and written nondisclosure prevents me publicly elaberating on environmental requirements.

You can display your former and present employer at your own discord.

I have no problems with our current ink supplier of over 16 years. The problem is finding an additional supplier to have for a back up.

 

[D Ink Man]

I must accept your reply.

I have no other choice.

You do. D

 

[Alois Senefelder]

I Digress

I Digress

Frankly the idea that we should have to rely on highly experienced, skilled and know knowledgeable people to keep offset working properly is one of the reasons I think the process is losing out to digital printing.

To keep the process viable for the future we need to reduce the need for experts, consultants, and specialized services. Until then, printers need support but that should not be the goal for the future.

Erik,

I'm appalled that you subscribe to this philosophy, though not surprised, this idea

is typical of the all pervasive American/UK - Anglo-Saxon ethos.

This forum exists to counter the widespread workforce ignorance of the
"Fundamentals of Lithography"


I count myself fortunate I completed a 6 year apprenticeship, when more enlightened culture
existed in the UK, instead of the present - Race to the Bottom culture.

Personal speaking, I'm a great admirer of German Manufacturing and its workforce culture -
highly skilled and knowledgeable



Regards, Alois