Understanding Color Calibration Process - I feel stupid - what am I missing?

[tngcas]

I didn't really have this problem before with our Xerox printers because they seemed to for the most part hold their colors with a reasonable degree of consistency.
I had other problems with Xerox that were insurmountable but colors seemed to be fairly stable. If the colors seemed like they were drifting we would use the EFI Color Calibrator and then keep printing.

Canon - it's a completely different story.
After talking to their expert that they sent out to train me today, I've come to the conclusion that I know nothing.

What I need:
A consistent process I can teach to every member of our print team to calibrate the printers so we know that colors are printing to about the same standard across our entire fleet (with a reasonable margin of difference from printer to printer).

Realistic Expectations or am I being unrealistic?
We aren't expecting miracles but when I color calibrate our Canon printers (we have four Canons) I get wildly different results depending on the steps I take. The photo below were all printed on the same printer, same paper, same file but after taking slightly different calibration steps using the Fiery Calibrate tool in Fiery with an EFI X-Rite i1Pro3 color calibrator.

The question is... which color is the right color and how would you know and verify that?
Except, I'm not looking for an answer for THIS file. I'm looking for an answer for ALL the customers files.

Canon has not been able to give me that answer or procedure/steps. They just fixate on one file not realizing I need a process because we cannot calibrate the printers between every single job 100 times a day, we are a short run print shop. We tell customers that colors won't come out consistently run to run but there should still be some sort of baseline expectation.

The expert is going to "research" but right now he's trying to pitch me software and color profiling systems that I'm sure will end up expensive. What exactly is the point of the spectrometer and fiery calibrator if we can't produce reliable results.

We also need a way to know that a color change problem isn't just a "recalibrate the colors" issue and is a "fix the drum or developer or whatever" issue.
Is there an expert out there who actually knows what they're doing and can train me on how to use the Fiery calibrator properly with canon equipment and get reliable output?
Because right now I feel incredibly uneducated in this area.

 

[SoggyWinter]

Thanks for posting. I would love to get my xerox and Epson gear outputting the same.

 

[jwheeler]

Realistic Expectations or am I being unrealistic?
We aren't expecting miracles but when I color calibrate our Canon printers (we have four Canons) I get wildly different results depending on the steps I take. The photo below were all printed on the same printer, same paper, same file but after taking slightly different calibration steps using the Fiery Calibrate tool in Fiery with an EFI X-Rite i1Pro3 color calibrator.

A few things to consider:

1. Are all four of your Canon devices the same model? (which models out of curiosity) If they are different models, you may have a constant battle ahead of you.
2. Are your operators sending files to the printer with the same method each time? Meaning, are they always dropping the PDF into CWS, or do they sometimes print directly from Acrobat for example?
3. Make sure your techs have installed the same version of firmware on each press and that all are set to the same defaults at the machine panel.
4. You might look into using Fiery Color Profiler Suite. It's specifically meant for shops with multiple Fiery driven printers so you can make one calibration profile and push it out to all devices to make them match. See screenshot of key features below.

 

[tngcas]

1) We have the Canon v1000, two c810s and a c910. The 810s have baby fieries on them. The 910 and v1000 have full fieries.
2) yes the operators use the exact same method for all files. Nobody can print to the printers direct from acrobat even if they wanted to and they don’t because they don’t know how. Files get dropped into cws and then imposed. The computers they use don’t even have acrobat installed on them.
3) I’ll look into the firmware and confirm the settings match.
4) The color profile suite is one of the options the expert mentioned researching but I told him I need a ballpark pricing on it AND confirmation prior to purchase that it will solve problems . I’m not buying it and then hoping it does what they said it would.

But really other print shops must have some process they use for knowing colors are close to expected outputs besides just eyeballing it… right?

Because even knowing all those things… how do I know any of the machines is printing the right colors. How do you know your machines are printing the right colors?

 

[jwheeler]

3) I’ll look into the firmware and confirm the settings match.
4) The color profile suite is one of the options the expert mentioned researching but I told him I need a ballpark pricing on it AND confirmation prior to purchase that it will solve problems . I’m not buying it and then hoping it does what they said it would.

#3 may be irrelevant since they are all different models, however, it is always helpful to have the latest firmware updates in general.

Regarding your notes on #4, there was a free trial of Color Profiler Suite (CPS) at the link I provided. As for the pricing, see the 4th question on page two of this document. It's $2,300 for the initial purchase, then $400 each year if you want to get the latest updates and support from Fiery. You can still use it without the annual upgrades.

For many shops that want to maintain a consistent, measurable color output between multiple devices, you need a standard to measure against. A common industry standard is the G7 process developed by Idealliance which is based on grey balance. In short, if you can get your neutral greys to print accurately (instead of too warm or too cool for example), then every other color falls into place. After reading through that link, go to their homepage and watch the video at the bottom for more info.

To help achieve this, it's recommended to upgrade from the typical handheld ES-2000 spectrophotometer that you're probably using to an automatic one such as this AutoScan Spectrophotometer. This allows for more accurate calibrations since the scanner can read more complex color test sheets like the example you see at the link I provided. In our shop, we have KM controllers instead of Fiery, so we have Curve4 software for the profiling process, which is similar to Fiery's CPS. We also purchased the auto-scanner I just mentioned. We had a KM color expert to come in and go through the G7 process (without official certification though) to match our two presses. We have a C6085 and C7090 which are completely different engines and were producing vastly different color for the same files. Now they are nearly identical.

I won't claim to be a color expert by any means, and I'm not formally G7 trained or certified. However, I used to sell KM production equipment, and my color specialist always told me if a shop had multiple engines and wanted to match between them, they needed Fiery CPS (if they had Fiery controllers). He was always able to get their presses to match very closely if he had that software. Otherwise, he was limited with the calibration method you're doing, and he struggled to get a match.

 

[kslight]

Unless you go through and profile each machine, you’re just going to chase your tail. Even then…doing short run work, is that really worth it? The cynical part of me wonders how many customers do you have that expect this (fewer of our customers every day can assemble proper print ready files, let alone worry about color matches)? I make sure our machine is running well and looks good, but generally speaking I’m not chasing colors and matching unless a customer has made a specific request…and nothing ever comes back rejected.

When I worked in a shop with multiple Xerox machines…identical or not, they wouldn’t be a perfect match. It’s a headache to try to run the same job on multiple machines, I would normally just have to use each machine for different tasks. I’m glad at my current shop, we just have one machine.

 

[TJPrinter]

Canon has a few more steps than Xerox, at least that’s what I thought when I had the C810.

You should perform the Auto Gradation first to get the machine(s) in a stable know condition. Be sure you perform the Auto Gradation on all the sets of paper weights "Thin 1, Plain 1, Plain 2 or Heavy 1 to Heavy 6/Uncoated that has the same whiteness of the Hammermill Color Copy Digital (28lb. (105 g/m2))

After you perform the Auto Gradation you can calibrate with Fiery. I had Color Profiler on the Canon but I have never had it with Xerox. I don’t know if it was really necessary for the work I do but Canon bundled it as an enticement to purchase from them. They did send a color specialist after some complaining and he was a wealth of information. If you have to routinely run Auto Gradation on 4 machines, that would be a time killer since you would most likely want to do all your machines at the same time, under the same environmental conditions.

That’s really all I remember, other than the C810 could never hold color as good as my Xerox Versants.

 

[Snowhugger]

I have the same issue. I had some experience with a Xerox Versant 180. It had problems but calibration was pretty straight forward.

Now we have a Canon V900 it has ILS, inline photospectrometer. I calibrate our machine every day using: Auto Adjust Gradation/ Full adjust, printing on 28# Hammermill, Premium Color Copy paper.

Beyond that we calibrate the Fiery using the Calibrate Tool in CWS. I am confused myself as to what I am calibrating to. CWS comes with dozens of "media types". In the Fiery Calibrator there is a drop down menu for "Calibration Name", on our set up we only have six. I thought that they would correspond to different ranges of media in our "media types". This does not seem to be the case.

When using the Fiery Calibrator the measurment method is always the ILS. The paper source is presumably the specific paper we want the machine to calibrate to. It seems like a complete crap shoot if I get the media type to agree with the calibration name and I can get the green check mark telling me my paper is calibrated in the job summary on the right hand panel in CWS.

Bottom line this is pretty confusing to me. I am going to work with Canon support to get a better understanding of this process. I will supply any nuggets of useful info I get from Canon in this thread.

Like you I think it is too much to expect us to calibrate for every stock and job we run in a given day.

 

[tngcas]

Everyone keeps talking about machine matching. But let’s say I get two machines with matching output.

How do you know the output they’re outputting is correct?

 

[tngcas]

Regarding your notes on #4, there was a free trial of Color Profiler Suite (CPS) at the link I provided. As for the pricing, see the 4th question on page two of this document. It's $2,300 for the initial purchase, then $400 each year if you want to get the latest updates and support from Fiery. You can still use it without the annual upgrades.

For many shops that want to maintain a consistent, measurable color output between multiple devices, you need a standard to measure against. A common industry standard is the G7 process developed by Idealliance which is based on grey balance. In short, if you can get your neutral greys to print accurately (instead of too warm or too cool for example), then every other color falls into place. After reading through that link, go to their homepage and watch the video at the bottom for more info.

Thank you for this info. I’ll be investigating today.

 

[kslight]

Everyone keeps talking about machine matching. But let’s say I get two machines with matching output.

How do you know the output they’re outputting is correct?

Correct to me is a specific and unrealistic term in the world of digital cmyk printing as that implies a measured and scientific precision…due to the nature of these beasts many colors won’t be 100% “correct” if comparing to a printed Pantone swatch. And due to regular variances, -a difficult standard to maintain.

I prefer broader terms like “neutral” and vaguely, “pleasing.” As suggested above - if your grays are neutral that’s usually a solid indicator that you’re in the ballpark. There are probably a series of test patterns on your fiery or available from techs. I use one that is a good check for neutral grays as well as faces (unless you are printing for big clients with specific colors, faces will be the first thing anyone checks for color). And then of course, if you are dealing with corporate clients using spot colors, you would check how close you are to those against a swatch. If a customer sees a hard proof (very few of our customers request this anymore), we compare our print run to the proof they have. There are also some instances where a client wants a color that is not technically correct, either because their file isn’t setup right or they’ve selected a color out of gamut, etc…I find our work can be pretty subjective thus I shoot for “pleasing.”

As you have suggested, I am doing these checks by eye - but having done this so long I have a feel for the target and expectation. You can certainly use tools to scan and measure your print, they sometimes come with your fiery with this ability (the external spectrophotometer) but I rarely use them like this. You would use this tool to create color profiles if higher precision is required.

 

[tngcas]

As you have suggested, I am doing these checks by eye - but having done this so long I have a feel for the target and expectation. You can certainly use tools to scan and measure your print, they sometimes come with your fiery with this ability (the external spectrophotometer) but I rarely use them like this. You would use this tool to create color profiles if higher precision is required.

This is actually more reassuring than you know. I was starting to think there was some obvious well-known process that everyone else knew and I didn't. It's starting to sound more like, we're doing the eyeball thing and it's mostly coming out within reason. I don't really have many customers that complain about colors but I was seriously starting to doubt myself.

 

[kslight]

This is actually more reassuring than you know. I was starting to think there was some obvious well-known process that everyone else knew and I didn't. It's starting to sound more like, we're doing the eyeball thing and it's mostly coming out within reason. I don't really have many customers that complain about colors but I was seriously starting to doubt myself.

More often than not for me if a customer wants a color match it’s to make something look “good to them” not to make it technically accurate. This is often to compensate for bad design or poorly lit photos. As long at the printer is fairly predictable and consistent I can generally put the rest in place.

 

[namelessentity]

I know the PRISMASync controllers have G7 profiling built in. I'm sure the Fiery does as well. I also know if you want to go hardcore into it you can print media wedges and scan them to verify, but we've never taken it that far.

We were told to do auto gradation daily, shading correction weekly, and media family calibration weekly. Always use Hammermill 28# since that's what the machines use as their white point, and always use the same stock for the media family calibration.

For Pantone matches we have a spectrophotometer and I usually try to aim for a Delta E under 2.

​

 

[EZPower]

We record which digital machine we used for production on our Job Tickets. For reprints, our old ticket lets us know which machine the job was run on. So we produce the job on the same printer. Helps with consistency.

 

[SteveSuffRIT]

If you number the samples in your photo from left to right, 1-6, there are 3 close pairs.
1 & 5 yellow
2 & 6 magenta
3 & 4 blue
Can you provide a Delta E (DE, dE) for those pairs?

 

[bluejay1118]

Good day. I am most willing to assist you and help you with your issues and concerns about color management. I will try my best to help you in my humble capacity. I have a Fogra Certification and Fiery Certification as well. We could discuss it online. Thanks.

 

[bluejay1118]

1) We have the Canon v1000, two c810s and a c910. The 810s have baby fieries on them. The 910 and v1000 have full fieries.
2) yes the operators use the exact same method for all files. Nobody can print to the printers direct from acrobat even if they wanted to and they don’t because they don’t know how. Files get dropped into cws and then imposed. The computers they use don’t even have acrobat installed on them.
3) I’ll look into the firmware and confirm the settings match.
4) The color profile suite is one of the options the expert mentioned researching but I told him I need a ballpark pricing on it AND confirmation prior to purchase that it will solve problems . I’m not buying it and then hoping it does what they said it would.

But really other print shops must have some process they use for knowing colors are close to expected outputs besides just eyeballing it… right?

Because even knowing all those things… how do I know any of the machines is printing the right colors. How do you know your machines are printing the right colors?

hello, initially, we have to understand the basic color management system in a printing room environment and familiarize ourselves with all the information and procedures needed to achieve accurate color and consistent color output. We need to be informed of several factors such as printing technology, the media we are about to use, and software that will aid us in accomplishing these objectives. Please feel free to reach out; I could help you with your concerns.

 

[tngcas]

Canon has told us to do the following:
1) Print at least 50 sheets every day before we start our print shift to warm up the machines then
2) Run auto gradation adjust with initialize on using the hammermill paper
3) color calibrate for the media type every day

And quote “some customers are running auto gradation and calibration 2 to 3 times a day depending on usage, coverage and media”

This feels excessive to me but I’m going to try it for a week or two and see if our colors start holding better.

 

[bluejay1118]

Canon has told us to do the following:
1) Print at least 50 sheets every day before we start our print shift to warm up the machines then
2) Run auto gradation adjust with initialize on using the hammermill paper
3) color calibrate for the media type every day

And quote “some customers are running auto gradation and calibration 2 to 3 times a day depending on usage, coverage and media”

This feels excessive to me but I’m going to try it for a week or two and see if our colors start holding better.

Better to use a color verifier system to ensure that your calibration is on the right track. Use media wedge on this procedure. I humbly suggest to use a Color Profiler Suite and use a tolerance set of Fogra 51 Side by side. You better create customized output icc profile if you are not hitting the right target of calibration.