What annoys you about press operators

[BeauchampT]

I may regret this, but...

I work as a press operator and want to work very closely with prepress for the best troubleshooting and results possible. Obviously in most plants, the relationship between prepress and pressroom has been 'strained' to say the least.

So, to all you prepress workers, form newbie to very experienced - what do we press operators do that annoys you most?? How can I communicate better with platemakers, graphic designers, proof makers, and so on?

Thanks for your input...

 

[zoran]

I think you should come working for us as such attitude coming from Pressman is unheard of
Seriously, what you are doing now is great first step, next one is to get technical lead or supervisor befriended and go out for a coffee or lunch and chat.
It might take a while but you might turn out to be best friends and both benefit from the relationship.
I think prepress is mostly irked with pressman attitude (I run big iron, nobody is equal to me, how dare you telling me that I have flaws, etc...).
Next thing would be not understanding what prepress has to deal with.

Pressroom mostly starts with perfect product that prepress is responsible for.

Prepress mostly starts with garbage that they are suppose to fix to make it into something that pressman is willing to put on his press.

It's a good start, this is from top of my head, keep it coming (you opened can of worms my friend)

 

[nhprinter]

Pressroom mostly starts with perfect product that prepress is responsible for.

Crap paper with more dust than an old ladies closet, temps in the pressroom that can vary by 40 degrees, rollers that shrink and swell, too much humidity, not enough humidity, too much tack, not enough tack, ghosting issues because of an inexperenced prepress person imposing the job wrong, "designers" that are "designers" because they own a computer and photoshop and put an 80% in the middle of an 11 x 17 solid with a gradient in front of that.



Let's not even get into the mechanical aspects of a printing press and what can go wrong on a daily basis.


There.....with that off my chest....

I'm a production manager so I deal with both departments on a daily basis, but my background is in the pressroom. (bet you couldn't tell)

We've got very good communication between departments so we don't have the problems that some shops do, but I have seen friction caused by a lack of knowledge in both departments.

I think it will always be there, but it can be limited with good COMMUNICATION and they both have to be open-minded. If either department talks down to the other it's a lost cause.

Consider the can opened.........

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I may regret this, but...

I work as a press operator and want to work very closely with prepress for the best troubleshooting and results possible. Obviously in most plants, the relationship between prepress and pressroom has been 'strained' to say the least.

So, to all you prepress workers, form newbie to very experienced - what do we press operators do that annoys you most?? How can I communicate better with platemakers, graphic designers, proof makers, and so on?

Thanks for your input...

BeauchampT, you have a great attitude shown by this question. Basically I would say that one problem could be is that press operators sometimes take a stance that implies that they have more understanding of the process than they actually do.

The whole process of printing is very complicated. There are so many things that can happen that seem unexpected in addition to the ones that are expected, that the prepress or press operator have to deal with. I have always been amazed at the number of issues that come up.

On the other hand, being a complicated process is not the problem. Many processes are very complicated but they have been understood better and therefore technology has been developed to address the fundamentals of that complication. The complication becomes almost invisible to the users.

With printing, historically and culturally, problems that lead to the complexity of the process are not corrected but tend to be covered up with technical approaches that address mostly the symptoms. This has resulted in better performing technology but technology that still allows problems to exist. This puts a lot of pressure on the operators.

If the industry can not explain in rational terms these problems, it is understandable that operators in prepress and at the press, will not explain issues in a way that will always lead to a quick solution.

In an environment that is this complicated and uncertain, I would suggest that people deal with each other in probabilities and not certainty. Never be 100% sure of anything. Never state that something is for sure "No *** good". Say where the problem is probably located and where it is probably not located and go from there.

One Japanese technique for problem solving addresses this issue. When everyone believes 100% that a problem is not caused by a certain issue, they tend not to investigate that issue. The technique says to try things you don't believe will work, just to find out what happens. If you have a belief that something will not work, you subconsciously make rational reasons for why it will not work. Actually testing what you don't believe can be a real eye opener when the results differ from your belief. It shows that what you believe is not always a good guide to what you should do.

Experts are a great barrier to progress. Humility can help a lot in relations between prepress and press.

 

[HPC]

I may regret this, but...

I work as a press operator and want to work very closely with prepress for the best troubleshooting and results possible. Obviously in most plants, the relationship between prepress and pressroom has been 'strained' to say the least.

So, to all you prepress workers, form newbie to very experienced - what do we press operators do that annoys you most?? How can I communicate better with platemakers, graphic designers, proof makers, and so on?

Thanks for your input...

Awesome attitude!!! Wish I had a few more pressman like this!!

Best piece of advice I can offer is no matter what the problem is, always approach as just that... a problem. Too often as crafts people we are very sensitive about mistakes, self included. As soon as you take a problem, put it off to the side, and address it as a problem, not he did or she did, I did. You will find it much easier to break it down to causes and solutions. Also, when asking questions, never use why, always use what. By using what it makes you phrase your question constructively, it also causes a more technical response than why. Sorry if this is a bit broken up, but its before my standard pot of coffee and I am so happy to run across a person with such an attitude like this I just wanted to help. I wish you luck on your adventure, don't get discouraged.

 

[Greg_Firestone]

It would be a riot to take a press crew and a prepress crew and let them switch hats for one day. We can do a reality TV show.

All kidding aside, I'm sure there would be a lot more appreciation for what each other brings to the table.

Greg

 

[HPC]

It would be a riot to take a press crew and a prepress crew and let them switch hats for one day. We can do a reality TV show.


Why stop there? How about the entire plant? There has to be enough entertainment for a half hour to an hour reality show!! Heck, film the plant for an entire week, pay someone to edit the entertaining footage, split the proceeds, everyone wins!!! From the janitor dumping a truck full of numbered cards all over the floor, to the look on someone's face getting busted for doing something they shouldn't.

 

[Luc St-Pierre]

Well, we have done it! Prepress people as press helpers for a full shift on high-end touchy jobs. Press people sitting in front of a computer for a whole shift. Nobody learned much in a single shift except that they learned to talk to each other and foremost to listen to each other. And to conclude, I must confess beeing in a position where I live in both worlds, that prepress can do a lot more with all the technology than a pressman operating a huge and unforgiving piece of equipment. All pressmen need to learn is to express clearly their needs to prepress that in turn will listen and find a fixer.

 

[BeauchampT]

Very nice comments far. Ok...to summarize what I get from this:

1)Talk - and be clear about what you are saying, not accusing but learning and stating your needs
2) Humility - especially if someone (on either end) made a mistake

And I think that reality show would have very limited appeal - I mean other than people in the print industry, who would get most of it???

Appreciate all your comments so far. Keep anything fresh coming.

As a side point - I see at my plant a real lack of knowledge in the platemaking and proofing aspect. We have excellent graphics and computer work, but when something else goes wrong, it takes along time for prepress to troubleshoot. So far, when I've suspected a solution and made a suggestion, I'm usually on the right track (or at least a good starting point). Any suggestions on how to get involved without stepping on toes???

 

[imagesetting]

Yes, its all about open communication - uncharged, as a prepress man now, I used to be a pressman also involved with finishing, and have a complete understanding of what is required, you can work with prepress staff who have no press room experience, but it does help somewhat !

http://www.imagesetting.com

 

[David Milisock]

Pressman, owner, pre-press technician

Pressman, owner, pre-press technician

I started on press 36 years ago, I used to be a plant manager (GOD) at a 50 man shop, I developed all production processes for that company and have run my own show for over 20 years. I like your attitude.

From all perspectives I would say that the only things that a pressman can do to ruin the day is to be difficult to work with, not be clean in their work habits and to not run to the numbers once approved. After that running a press and keeping the numbers consistant in AN ART not a science since the variables of press operation will not always be exactly repeatable due to the fluid nature of paper and ambient condidions.

A pressman is trapped by the environment that management allows them, thousands of issues affecting maintenance and environment. Not to mention a lack of media curves for all media hence affecting ink on paper.

From the owners perspective you simply can't have some pre-press technician pissing away thousands of man hours and therefore money on 500 media curves and BS standards. Identifying proper standards and controlling the run away pre-prerss technician is a real dog and pony show. Any owner who is not charging the client for the creation of custom curves is loosing money. Also the pressman with an overzealous wrench has to be controlled too.

Pre-press while trapped within the parameters of the budget and therefore the applications at hand work in a science not an art. Repeatable processes are at the very core of pre-press, plenty of variables but the variables react the same way every time. Assuming a sufficient budget for reliable hardware if the processes are not repeatable then either the computer technicians or application technicians or both are to blame.

Customer files are another can of worms but predictable and handeled well if the communication with sales works.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

@David Milisick
I think some of the "habbits" and "attitude" was formed when prepress was unpredictable and expensive. Because from the days of manual separation, at times being in the dark pressmen got used to "saving" jobs, even new pressmen were trained buy those that distrusted the consistent output of prepress.

Today prepress can be consistent. It is possible to print by numbers, and as design is also finding new ways of being "creative" inspired by the "flaws" of older jobs they actually design photos to look like what we are trained to correct.

This is why what you say is important. We need to decide clear standards and then do our best to reach our part in the standard. This is among other things why on press approval is such a pain…*the designer starts looking at their pictures, and then by judging wet inks want to adjust things that need to be handled in prepress at the press.

With prepress equipment being so cheap as it is today, and a calibrated monitor being able to predict very well what results will be (and experienced/trained prepress staff being well aware of the limitations of how what they see on screen may differ) we never had a better time to predict what we will get that what we have today.

Building trust and a sense of teamwork is key, that may mean investing time for a pressman to hear how abstract the discussions about client wishes are and see what prepress deal with from customer files, and let prepress have a day at the press to see how complex the real world can be, and understand how paint dries.

 

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

I have a suggestion for pre-press, when a job is on press and it has a problem that needs to be fixed in pre-press, please show a sense of urgency. It is very annoying when a problem does not get elevated to "stop what your doing and get me a new plate" status, because unlike pre-press if a job is on press and it needs a new plate, NOTHING else can get done, schedules can get thrown off in as little as a half hour of unexpected down time!!! Press guys stay late when problems come up, 5 pm can come and go, but until the job is done and press is cleaned up we have to say, pre-press ops are lined up with umbrella's and lunch boxes waiting for the horn to sound and they are out the door....

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

@TheProcessIStheproduct I think you will find that varies from plant to plant, and in some case operator to operator (both press and prepress). I was visiting another company to help them with calibrating their flow and we came in in the morning where a stack of printed sheets were standing with one page on the spread shifted out of place by about an inch horizontally and vertically.
This showed that prepress had made a serious miss to let it through.
The press operator had wasted a stack of paper (which meant that it would be a setback till new stock would arrive as it was sheet fed and not house standard stock)

it didn't take much to see the serious error, and routines were lacking in many places (I'm sure there are way too many similar stories out there).

 

[David Milisock]

@David Milisick
I think some of the "habbits" and "attitude" was formed when prepress was unpredictable and expensive. Because from the days of manual separation, at times being in the dark pressmen got used to "saving" jobs, even new pressmen were trained buy those that distrusted the consistent output of prepress.

Today prepress can be consistent. It is possible to print by numbers, and as design is also finding new ways of being "creative" inspired by the "flaws" of older jobs they actually design photos to look like what we are trained to correct.

This is why what you say is important. We need to decide clear standards and then do our best to reach our part in the standard. This is among other things why on press approval is such a pain…*the designer starts looking at their pictures, and then by judging wet inks want to adjust things that need to be handled in prepress at the press.

With prepress equipment being so cheap as it is today, and a calibrated monitor being able to predict very well what results will be (and experienced/trained prepress staff being well aware of the limitations of how what they see on screen may differ) we never had a better time to predict what we will get that what we have today.

Building trust and a sense of teamwork is key, that may mean investing time for a pressman to hear how abstract the discussions about client wishes are and see what prepress deal with from customer files, and let prepress have a day at the press to see how complex the real world can be, and understand how paint dries.

I agree, I also am a proponet of REAL standards, ones that make the industry money, shops are closing in my area at a rate of 12% too many good jobs being lost. From a historical perspective we had postscript color managed RIPs in reality we still do and they work wonderfully. However the real gain for productivity, hence profitability was the application/document level ICC controlled file creation work flow not the SWOP and or GRACOL standards being pushed for press calibration. With this method a postscript color managed press can reproduce SWOP, GRACOL or any other standard that resides within the presses total ink limit.

A designer that compiles with ICC standards during file creation gives us what we need interms of color. The same designer that also complies with postscript gives us all we need.

In this case both the pre-press person and the pressman have what they need. Running to the numbers WORKS and has WORKED for 20 years. Long before GRACOL.

Just give the presman the chance to do it, like control the shipping are so whe you get a delivery the temerature and humidity do not take a huge leap.

Get the job press proofed to the numbers and take the proof to the client IN THE CONFERENCE ROOM! Many times this is BS because the client is BS but with good customer servcie communication one can develop good clients.

 

[David Milisock]

> I think some of the "habbits" and "attitude" was formed when prepress was unpredictable and expensive.
Lukas I may have a few years on you but IMO prepress was never unpredictable and it never got inexpensive.

If anything computer applications add predictability to the process, sure two RIPS may handle transparency differenty but each RIP handes it repeatably. Quark transparency may be different from Adobe or Corel in RIP A than in RIP B but they always do it the same way.

True Adobe has been terrible at controling the use of postscript and this has caused the process to be complicated but it's very manageable. The real problem as far as I can see are the owners of the companies. Rarely do I see an owner who has a superior understanding of the need for GDI, postscript and ICC compliance let alone the ability to run a logical technical path, they all seem tobe sheep followint the BS I read it int he trad magazine and this is the way it's done in graphics mantality. When I do see a real understanding of the global technology I see a very profitable company.

This is even more critical today as the print aspect of the total graphics package dollar is continuing to shrink. For example IMO shops need to get the design dollar when they can, they also need the signage dollar when they can. In the U.S. there is a big move toward the signage dollar in print shops, unfortunately the MAC/Adobe cookie cutter mentality is kiling the profitability aspect of this for the printer and they have trouble seeing it. The designs for signage are best done in specialty programs or at the very least transferred to specialty programs like Gerber, Flexi Sign or a top of the line program like CorelDRAW to mention a few and get it off the MAC.

Making money in graphics has become more diverse and more exciting then ever, now we have files for use in web, digital dry toner, wet toner, ink jet, traditionl press and signage as well as dimentional signage all in a color managed environment that really works in a very profitable manner UNDER ONE ROOF!! How cool is that?

It all works from a single computer source file as long as we can get our MAC/Adobe head out of our butts and use the right application for the right process and integrate properly. Gerber, FlexiSign, CorelDRAW, Adobe or what ever where it's PRODUCTIVE AND THEREFORE PROFITABLE.

Then just let the pressman run to the numbers on his work, the injet print to the media profile or what ever, MAKING MONEY!

 

[BeauchampT]

Just to close off this thread...

Thanks for all your input, I appreciate it very much. It helped confirm to me my approach on a professional level. Since I am friends with the people I work with, it is that much easier.

I appreciate the open dialogue between different disciplines on this site.

 

[jcone18]

The best thing you can do is work with them. When something's not right make sure you've checked your density/dot gain, blankets, packing, etc. When you go in to pre-press ask them what they think it could be. Don't walk in and tell them they got it wrong. If they see you looking at your work and not criticizing theirs they'll be more open to working together. I've spent the last 16 years in pre-press and have built a strong working relationship between my pre-press and our press crews. I've trained our press operators on outputting their own plates and had my pre-press guys spend some time on press. It won't happen overnight but it can be done!

 

[otherthoughts]

Here's a related thread that might be helpful?
http://printplanet.com/forums/prepr...e-you-worked-both-sides-divide-press-prepress

Regards - OT