What comes before Newbie? That's where we are - Troubles with X-Rite and colors

[noboost4you]

Hi,

Let me first introduce myself; I'm Bryan and I/we have no experience in the printing industry other than hitting Ctrl-P on the office laser. However, we have recently purchased a couple big ticket items to bring a few items we used to outsource, in-house: Mimaki UJF 3042FX and X-Rite 528.

The Mimaki is used for printing on our product and the X-Rite was for checking to ensure the colors we input into Corel and printing correctly on the substrate. This is where the machines are smarter than us.

No matter what we do, the Pantone color we input into Corel and print through the Mimaki does not translate to the substrate according to the X-Rite 528.

For example, printing Pantone 186C, X-Rite matches 200C at Delta E: 2.37. However, if we print Pantone 1788C, the X-Rite will then read 186C with Delta E: 1.62. This is a horrific band aid and extremely time consuming.

Our substrate is white. We even tried printing on standard white printer paper and the colors don't match up. We've calibrated the X-Rite per their standard and every 24 hrs.

This seems like a loaded question, but what are we doing wrong? I'm game to try anything as long as the Pantone color we input into Corel is what the X-Rite measures once it has been run through the Mimaki UJF-3042FX.

Thanks,
Bryan

 

[CathieH]

Maybe I'm not hearing you correctly, but generally with CMYK printers, if you put in a Pantone color, you get what you get. You need to make your artwork CMYK with the values that match the PMS color to get even close.

But, like I said, I may be barking up the wrong tree...

 

[noboost4you]

Maybe I'm not hearing you correctly, but generally with CMYK printers, if you put in a Pantone color, you get what you get. You need to make your artwork CMYK with the values that match the PMS color to get even close.

But, like I said, I may be barking up the wrong tree...

I believe Corel exports with the CMYK color profile. Here are snapshots of the export settings from Corel:




Something in here incorrect?

 

[CathieH]

Well, I don't know Corel that well, but I can definitely suggest checking the "Convert spot colors to process" button in the advanced area.

I'd also make sure you up the resolution to at least 300 and perhaps change the profile to "compositive printer profile".

I don't know if this will help, but if I could, I'd love to be there to work out this puzzle with you. I love to fix this kind of stuff, but it's a pretty hands-on situation.

Let us know what happens.
Cathie

 

[dabob]

Is that printer "pantone certified"???? I can't find any information on the web about the inkset it uses but if its cmyk or cmyk,lc, lm or other six color ink sets its going to approximate pantone colors and there are some colors that you just can't get to from here. It's just the nature of the beast.

 

[noboost4you]

Is that printer "pantone certified"???? I can't find any information on the web about the inkset it uses but if its cmyk or cmyk,lc, lm or other six color ink sets its going to approximate pantone colors and there are some colors that you just can't get to from here. It's just the nature of the beast.

I'm not sure, but Mimaki's software, RasterLink Pro 5 rip software offers Pantone color matching. When we export the EPS and load it into RasterLink, it says this color is Pantone XXX like we inputted into Corel.

The current inkset in the Mimaki is CMYKWW.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Bryan, there are two common approaches for printing spot colours on wide format devices:

1) Let the RIP or printer driver handle spot colours as true spot colours - so no conversion to CMYK in the file. The RIP or printer driver will have a lookup table in device independent L*a*b* colour space, where it will perform a conversion to the final printer colour space (the ICC profile describing the printer resolution, ink and media interaction). An alternative is for the RIP to use a device dependent CMYK lookup table for the media/ink ink use, which would be the larger gamut inkjet device values, not a traditional litho press CMYK. Either way, in theory the colour should be better as the Pantone colour is not being dumbed down. You have to have colour profiles for the output media in question, so that the conversion from device independent Pantone to the device dependent printer is accurate.

2) Print out CMYK or RGB test charts using your standard production workflow, in order to manually match a printed Pantone book against a final print on the production material. Once you know what values are acceptable for a match, define the spot colour with these known values. You may or may not have more success with using a CMYK or RGB file, depending on the colour management settings of the printer driver or RIP.

Due to the substrate and the ink in use, one may not be able to hit certain Pantone colours as they will be out of gamut.


Hope this helps,

Stephen Marsh

 

[michaelejahn]

@ Bryan - my first concern would be 'can you actually print CMYK reliably" - then I would worry about Pantone. What software are you using to analyze ? If you have no answer for that question, you might start by contacting a G7 color expert. Visit this site and see if you can find someone in your area to come on site and help.

go here ( and select Ohio )

Master Printer Database - Welcome

Or, reach out to The Color Management Group.

Color Management Group

Even people who a great deal of experience with printing use these folks when faced with what you are facing.

Good luck.

 

[noboost4you]

Ok, sorry for the delay in replies; been busy testing and researching.

Our Mimaki printer is not a certified Pantone printer. Thus, inputting Pantone into graphic software and/or RIP software which reads the correct Pantone, but the printer is physically incapable of reproducing it with it's inks. Essentially, we will have to simulate the Pantone color with a special combination of CMYK values and running them through the printer. We've been able to do so and have our X-Rite tell us what it closely matches. I was able to get a Delta E of 1.28 for 186C on C: 0, M: 89, Y: 76, and K: 0. It's whacky, but it works.

Thank you everyone for your feedback!

 

[CathieH]

Glad you found a solution. When you try to match pantone colors via CMYK, I think you'll find that blue and purple are the absolute most difficult, especially blue. Those might take more work than say a red or yellow.

 

[noboost4you]

Well luckily, our colors do not vary often. Our standard two colors are Black and 186C. Any custom color per customer will go through certain R&D processes. Not the ideal solution, but a solution nonetheless.

 

[David Milisock]

>I'm game to try anything as long as the Pantone color we input into Corel is what the X-Rite measures once it has been run through the Mimaki UJF-3042FX.

What version of Corel and I assume CorelDRAW?

CorelDRAW X5 and X6 uses the LAB specification for converting to CMYK, you can alos choose RGB or CMYK however the result on your media will also depend on the quality of the profile.

Can I assume you're using the Mimali RIP? Do you create your media profiles? Does your RIP allow spot color conversion curves?

 

[David Milisock]

Notice the convert spot colors is unchecked, this will allow the devices profile to read the spot color name and control the conversion

 

[David Milisock]

Sorry here is the second tab please note the floating point checkbox it is required but not a default

 

[David Milisock]

>but I can definitely suggest checking the "Convert spot colors to process"

Not a good idea
I'll suggest my book on CorelDRAW color management at Custom Graphic Technologies Inc

 

[noboost4you]

>I'm game to try anything as long as the Pantone color we input into Corel is what the X-Rite measures once it has been run through the Mimaki UJF-3042FX.

What version of Corel and I assume CorelDRAW?

CorelDRAW X5 and X6 uses the LAB specification for converting to CMYK, you can alos choose RGB or CMYK however the result on your media will also depend on the quality of the profile.

Can I assume you're using the Mimali RIP? Do you create your media profiles? Does your RIP allow spot color conversion curves?

Currently, we are running X4, but X5 has been ordered and should be delivered this week.

Yes, we are using Mimaki's RIP software, RasterLink Pro IP 5. We do not create our own media profiles. Yes, the software allows for us to alter color curves.

 

[David Milisock]

>Currently, we are running X4, but X5 has been ordered and should be delivered this week.

Ok give me a buzz BEFORE installing, 717-203-6358 I'm East Coast USA time( mention this forum so I don't ignore you). There is some thinking tobe done and if done this can be less painfull and down right productive. X6 has not had a service pack yet so X5 is the way, with that said X6 has Open type support and is a decent upgrade for you as the color engines are identical with a couple enhancements that do not affect integrity simply ease of use.

 

[noboost4you]

>Currently, we are running X4, but X5 has been ordered and should be delivered this week.

Ok give me a buzz BEFORE installing, 717-203-6358 I'm East Coast USA time( mention this forum so I don't ignore you). There is some thinking tobe done and if done this can be less painfull and down right productive. X6 has not had a service pack yet so X5 is the way, with that said X6 has Open type support and is a decent upgrade for you as the color engines are identical with a couple enhancements that do not affect integrity simply ease of use.

If our printer and ink sets are not Pantone certified (as stated by the manufacturer), how could the software have any positive impact?

 

[David Milisock]

>Pantone certified
Certification means nothing. A process that is repeatable and compatible is the way to go, which a certification process is but the end result is not necessarly more or less correct its just repeatable.

X4 was unique in it's color management processes. It was certainly viable but difficult to configure, also Pantone specifications have changed since then and have since positioned themselves to be stable for some time since they are now based on LAB. As Corel has been on this specification for 2 cycles and CS6 is also using LAB for spot colors this places you in a compatilbe position for the foreseeable future.

Color management is about making the application work as it should with repeatable tagged color spaces, then configuring the output device to receive the data in a repeatable manner so the curve adjustments and or profiles can produce the output in a repeatable fashion. With all application using the LAB specification for spot conversion this should reduce issues of conversions shifts for the future.

The issue with newer software is the installation, XP has some issues that are there, Vista and Windows 7 have their own issue. Preparing the system before an install and a proper install makes software upates less stressful.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Bryan, how much money has your company invested to do all this in-house - without having the appropriate setup knowledge and experience?...not to mention operational knowledge?

I think it is past time that your company considered hiring a consultant (or hiring full time) with knowledge and experience with your hardware and software to get yo set-up and running so that you are productive as soon as possible.


Stephen Marsh