What is my ink missing?

[Ajax]

I can print pms after pms all day long in the same unit on my machine without any problems. When it comes to a specific three inks they want act differently.

I will explain the issues for each and the specific pms should be irrelevant considering every other pms runs just fine.

First ink: I ink up the roller train evenly. I drop the water form roller to wet the plate then when I drop the ink forms to start running the rollers look like they turned to glass. All the water on the plate just went into the entire ink train. Everything is washed out and toning up at the same time. Turning down the water does nothing.

Keep in mind it is always these specific 3 inks and no other. So we can rule out that there is still solvent in the rollers and calcium and what ever else.

The other two inks: Ink up as normal. Start make ready and instantly lead edge toning and image wash out but this time the rollers show no sign of water.

This is on new metal plates and I can put any other color in and print on the same plate just fine.

If this is a chemistry problem for fountain solution it hardly makes sense to change 5 gallons of water for three specific inks.

So my question is what is my ink missing? All my other inks are fine with the current chemistry. What can I add to that ink to get it to settle down?

 

[RGPW17100]

What is the pms color, What is the manufacture of the ink and what is the tack of the ink

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

I assume your expertise like myself is printing and not ink manufacture or ink chemistry. Your ink company if they are worth their salt should be only too happy to send in a technical rep to observe the issue and make recommendations. If your ink company does not have a technical rep then they need to find one and solve this issue for you. The price you pay for a can of ink should include an army of technical support behind it. You seem to have proven that it is not your print unit/settings/chemistry/wash up procedures.

 

[Al Ferrari]

Are the inks that are not performing properly from the same ink company as the ones that do print properly? It is not possible to discern that from the vast amount of information you have given.

Al

 

[Ajax]

To answer the ink questions. They are toyo. The latter of t wo inks are, according to color book mixtures, 75 percent or more transparent white. The other a simple pms red 208. The 208 is the one that makes the rollers look like glass.

 

[Al Ferrari]

The question was aimed at determining the "differences" between the well performing inks and the poor performing ones. Your answer does not inform us of that.

Let's try again: are the well performing inks also Toyo brand inks?

Other questions: are you obtaining these already mixed by Toyo, or are you mixing them yourself? And if you are mixing them yourself, are you using Toyo components exclusively, or are there other brands of components involved? Are you adding anything else to these inks such as softeners, or tack reducers?

Also, among the well performing inks, are there others with similar high percentages of transparent white as 75%?

Al

 

[ketyjomes]

your problem is very complicated really. I can't even understand

 

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

I always struggled with toyo Warm Red blends, would be super easy to implicate or rule out the ink, by getting another manufacturer to mix 3# of the problem color and run it head to head...

 

[Bob Peterson]

Ajax-

This may very well be an ink problem. However, more info is needed:

--What is the body of the 208 like? Is it soft and runny, consistency of peanut butter, or heavy?

--What is the solid ink density?

--Is it always PMS 208 red that has the problem? What if you put in say a PMS 202 red will it react the same?

 

[Ajax]

Gonna try and tackle all questions posed.

1. The well performing and the poor performing are both toyo.
2. They are all mixed by toyo and not mixed from scratch in the shop.
3. No added compounds to the ink until now but I'll explain later.
4. The 208 ink is more runny and not like I'm used to seeing for that pms.
5. Haven't a solid density for the 208 since there are no color bars and the work is just line copy. For the transparent inks to be up to color I stick at .71 on the densitometer.
6. Pms 202 does not react the same and it is in fact run more often on the same machine.

Now, I've had some success keeping the 208 ink at bay by adding cornstarch to the ink. Something I'd rather not do because it's a pain getting out of the rollers.

I hope that covers everything.

 

[Al Ferrari]

Hi ajax,

Thank you for all those responses. They tell us in the forum that Toyo is responsible for the problems with the poor performing inks.

My advice is like that of TheProcessIStheproduct in his 5:24 AM post today Monday: Quietly try a batch of ink from a different brand. Then if that solves the problem you can either give Toyo an opportunity to do right by you, or you can simply continue to buy either just those colors or all of your inks from the other brand.

Best of luck, and let us know how it turns out in the end.

Al

 

[D Ink Man]

To answer the ink questions. They are toyo. The latter of t wo inks are, according to color book mixtures, 75 percent or more transparent white. The other a simple pms red 208. The 208 is the one that makes the rollers look like glass.

Here is an easy trial to see whay is going on. Whoever is blending your ink, have them make the pMS 208 out of your Process Magenta instead of pMS base Rubine. You will be astonished at what may you learn. D

 

[D Ink Man]

Gonna try and tackle all questions posed.

1. The well performing and the poor performing are both toyo.
2. They are all mixed by toyo and not mixed from scratch in the shop.
3. No added compounds to the ink until now but I'll explain later.
4. The 208 ink is more runny and not like I'm used to seeing for that pms.
5. Haven't a solid density for the 208 since there are no color bars and the work is just line copy. For the transparent inks to be up to color I stick at .71 on the densitometer.
6. Pms 202 does not react the same and it is in fact run more often on the same machine.

Now, I've had some success keeping the 208 ink at bay by adding cornstarch to the ink. Something I'd rather not do because it's a pain getting out of the rollers.

I hope that covers everything.

Adding corn starch will do next to nothing in helping your ink misting problem.

 

[D Ink Man]

Another very important factor is Ink Film Thickness. If possible, collect ink films from your ink vibrator roller (metal only!) with an Interchemical ink film thickness gage. Compare the pMS 208 to the other two pMS that contain transparent white. Understand pMS 208 is a FULL STRENGTH spot color. The other 2 inks that contain white could vary greatly as far as their inherent color strength, all depending how the TOYO tech matched them.

Also, one last question. Is there a great difference in ink coverage on the pMS 208 form versus the other 2 spots? If so, I will elaborate further how coverage, or sometimes called take off, can be a key player in ink misting. Please let me know and collect those IFT's. Very important. D

 

[joz_4y]

can you make the pms mix yourself? it is strange that 208 doesnt work and 202 works fine, they have almost the same amount of ingredients; it could be a fault in the mixing laboratory of your ink supplier, that can happen. Are the other 2 "bad" pms colors also with rubine red?

 

[Bob Peterson]

Ajax- Regarding the 208 being softer in body then what you are used to; I take it that you have received this same color in the past and haven't had this problem? If this is indeed the case, being the Rubine red is the predominant component, then the Rubine is the culprit. However, if you always have had problems with the 208, your supplier is doing something wrong, and my recommendation is to either mix the color yourself using your process inks, or order a can of 208 from another supplier.

Keep us posted

Bob

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

Here's a novel idea, get Toyo in to see the problem and correct it. Your job is to print and make money the ink companies job is to supply you with product that allows you to both make a profit, I wouldnt ask my ink company to run sheets through my press so they shouldnt expect me to be an ink chemist. If I was dealing maybe with a ma and pa outfit then granted I might have to 'tweak' the ink a bit but Toyo dont fall into that catagory.

 

[D Ink Man]

Here's a novel idea, get Toyo in to see the problem and correct it. Your job is to print and make money the ink companies job is to supply you with product that allows you to both make a profit, I wouldnt ask my ink company to run sheets through my press so they shouldnt expect me to be an ink chemist. If I was dealing maybe with a ma and pa outfit then granted I might have to 'tweak' the ink a bit but Toyo dont fall into that catagory.

Also sir, the TOYO is probably provided by a middle man company like Fujifilm. This may explain it. They may simply not have the know how and experience to correct the problem. It could be one of those BUNDLED Joy packages, that some printers are falling prey to. D

 

[Alois Senefelder]

I Suggest -- B ody Varnish

I Suggest -- B ody Varnish

Hello Ajax and all fellow Lithographers not forgetting "Smudgers of Ink on Paper"


In the meantime, I suggest you Add some: Litho Body Varnish, grade Thin 00 -


DO NOT USE - Overprinting Gloss Varnish, they are not the SAME

This Additive will Stiffen any Litho Ink, these Body Varnishes are useful additions, they are made in various Viscosity grades ranging from: Extra Tint > XX Strong.


Regards, Alois