What's the beef with layered PDFs?

[Gregg]

Personally, I love layered PDFs, and they are part of our standard workflow. However, I have some print vendors (both in the US and overseas) that have resistance to receiving layered PDFs. Most of the time, when we push back, the print vendor will accept the layered PDF, but sometimes they simply refuse, stating they cannot work with what was supplied (without giving any further explanation, mainly because of language barriers). On the flip side, I have some print vendors who laugh at the notion that others wouldn't accept layered PDFs. So is it simply the print vendor being stubborn, or are there some worklfows that reject layered PDFs?

An example of what we'd send out:
- Book jacket file with spot UV, the layer structure of the PDF would mirror the layer structure of the InDesign file, meaning the spot UV layer is above the artwork and text. The spot UV is a spot color and the elements are set to overprint.

The reason I like layered PDFs is:
• only need to supply 1 PDF
• export takes less time, since you are only exporting 1 PDF
• you can easily review the PDF ensuring that the spot uv, foil, emboss, etc, plates are lining up properly

 

[gig0]

My guess: Many, many, many, many printers out there have antiquated hardware and still rely on v1.3 flattened PDFs as a bulletproof solution. Not surprising considering how cut throat this industry has become because of profit shortfalls. Just my observation.

 

[motormount]

I export layered pdf's myself too,but since the majority of our customers fail to deliver a simple x1a flattened file right i don't even like to think about starting giving me layerd...

 

[rich apollo]

If a print provider is equipped to handle layered PDFs, they can be great. What you describe is not that complex. I'm thinking more of having 40 version changes all contained in the same PDF. If your front-end can digest that, and make use of it, great. If it can't, well, now you've inherited a nightmare. You would have to delete 39 layers, or the content of 39 layers, and create a new PDF...FORTY TIMES.

If they are asking for PDF/X-1a, well, layers are not allowed. No layers until PDF/X-4.

 

[seratne]

I view PDFs as the final file, where no alterations need to be done to it. Layered PDFs are fine, but if you give me a layered file I will setup my workflow to use all of the layers. So if you have one as hidden and don't want it to print, my output will be different than your expectations.

If you send a PDF with background, art, text, logos, dieline, varnish, fpo, and variable layers there are 254 different combinations of on/off where the output can be different than you wanted.

 

[Gregg]

So it sounds like for the most part it's just lack of trust from the supplier of the layered PDF. I get that - been on the print vendor side of things before I got into publishing.

 

[leonardr]

I view PDFs as the final file, where no alterations need to be done to it. Layered PDFs are fine, but if you give me a layered file I will setup my workflow to use all of the layers. So if you have one as hidden and don't want it to print, my output will be different than your expectations.

And your output would violate the rules for both PDF in general and that of PDF/X-4. So why would you ever do that? The rules for PDF rendering state that, in the absence of external controls (such as via JDF), a conforming reader is to process the "Default" set of OCGs.

[/quote]If you send a PDF with background, art, text, logos, dieline, varnish, fpo, and variable layers there are 254 different combinations of on/off where the output can be different than you wanted.[/QUOTE]

Correct. And using something such as JDF you can control which one(s) get printed in which order on what substrates, etc.

 

[seratne]

leonardr, layered PDFs with or without jdf can be great, and can enable a whole lot of features. But they're only as good as the people who are producing them. Do I want them from clients? Preferably not. But I do use them in-house to make my job easier.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

They are technically known as Optional Content Groups for a reason, however many end users (mis?)use them as simple stacking “layers” as that is what they are used to from Photoshop/Illustrator/InDesign. PDF “layers” can offer so much more, if you can easily work with them.


Stephen Marsh

 

[michaelejahn]

- I'm thinking more of having 40 version changes all contained in the same PDF. If your front-end can digest that, and make use of it, great. If it can't, well, now you've inherited a nightmare - and - No layers until PDF/X-4.

Oh, just hell no. Just because PDF/X-4 allows you to turn layers on does not mean they belong in any automated PDF workflow.



Most thumbnail generators will simply flatten and show that layer. Layers are great for design and packaging, but when you give me a file to print, please resolve them there layers !

 

[leonardr]

Oh, just hell no. Just because PDF/X-4 allows you to turn layers on does not mean they belong in any automated PDF workflow.

Michael, I am SHOCKED to hear you talking like that - extremely old school and luddite-ish (is that a word, if not, it should be!) Layers are not only perfected good for automated workflows, they are quite useful when combined with job instructions (eg. JDF, etc.) that can control which sets of layers are set for which jobs.

Most thumbnail generators will simply flatten and show that layer.

Hopefully, most generators will follow the rules of PDF or PDF/X (depending) and render the correct set of layers (OCGs).

 

[michaelejahn]

Hope - Rhymes with ...

Hope - Rhymes with ...

Hopefully, most generators will follow the rules of PDF or PDF/X (depending) and render the correct set of layers (OCGs).

Hey LR - well there you go - using that *hopefully* word. I am all in with JDF workflows, but I can't name 3 ( three) printers in that 2 to 20 million in sales who use JDF to control much of anything.

I suppose ( and will admit ) now that I live in an "upload your PDF to my storefront template" world, I am in a non JDF universe. If I see anything smells like an inbound XML file - it represents an print order, and it is more often cXML - and the only bits that point to that PDF is a <fileF> URL ( so the PDF can be pulled in via SOAP or *ahem* FTP )

So, sorry brother - JDF files that control layers - from some portal ? Please. Not happening.

Love ya - but just not seeing this sort of activity and my admittedly low altitude.

Not saying it does not ( or can't ) happen - but more in the 2% ( Very Large Printers - where it is hard wired )

Can't wait until you prove me wrong !

 

[abc]

I'm always a little nervous responding to threads like this as I'm coming at it from a vendor point of view, but there is a lot of ignorance surrounding layers in PDF and their benefits. A lot of people think they are the same as layers in other applications.

Like anything in this industry it's going to take time for adoption to become widespread. The change from PDF/X-1a to PDF/X-4 is a case in point. How many people are still comfortable with live transparency in PDF files?

I do understand, the 'if it ain't broke' point of view has it's place, and who in production has time to test and experiment, and who wants to take a chance that things will not work out.

However the fact is that there are real benefits to working with OCGs in a lot of production scenarios and they will make life easier once the confidence levels are there.

We (Enfocus) are seeing a lot of interest in their use and they are a regular topic of interest during our product webinars in both manual and automated workflows.

The tools are available to preflight, correct and work with OCGs so it’s not the blind leap of faith it perhaps was.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

A lot of people think they are the same as layers in other applications.

A great example of how OCG are not the same as simple “layers” in other Adobe apps is to run the Acrobat Pro Fixup “Create different layers for vector, text, image”. One can also create an Action List in Enfocus PitStop Pro 12 to do the same thing, without having to close and reopen the PDF to see the results.

If you have a source file with complex stacking order for vector/text/images - one might imagine that creating separate layers for these elements would ruin the stacking/layering order and create a mess. However, with OCG one can see that in this case a “layer” is similar to a content “filter”, a bit like Acrobat Pro Output Preview has the ability to isolate and view separate objects or colour spaces etc.

Layers that are generated in creative applications do not behave in the same way.

P.S. Another creative use of OCG:

http://answers.acrobatusers.com/Can-I-set-PDF-view-version-separate-print-version-q210221.aspx


Stephen Marsh

 

[abc]

A great example of how OCG are not the same as simple “layers” in other Adobe apps is to run the Acrobat Pro Fixup “Create different layers for vector, text, image”. One can also create an Action List in Enfocus PitStop Pro 12 to do the same thing, without having to close and reopen the PDF to see the results.
Stephen Marsh

There are several already available in PitStop 12 update 2 Stephen.
Isolate Images, Text, Graphics and Shadings
Isolate Colorspaces

I think they are pretty self-explantory

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Thanks Andrew, I missed that (I thought that it was strange that there was no factory action for this), it was good practice building my own action list anyway!


Stephen Marsh