Would like your valuable input - Buying Copier

[yas1987]

Hi Everyone,

First post ( Hopefully not the last), i am thankful that i came across this website. It seems that there are lot of educated folks around here and i am need of your input. I am in the market to purchase (or lease) a copier machine, and im astounded at the vast amount of research that goes into buying a copier. I was hoping someone could recommend me or provide me with valuable info to help on this.

I will make this short, i need a black and white copier (new or used) , doesnt need to have amazing print quality, as long as its decent in black&white printing. Scanner and the other extra features like binding is not a requirement as i will be purchasing stand alone scanner and binder for that purpose. I just need a copier that's good at black and white printing. Something that is >40 PPM (duplex printing). I am going to have a printing volume of around 40000-70000 pages (all duplex) per month. I will be printing from a computer to the copier. No color printing will be needed. Paper used will only be letter size, print on regular paper, no glossy or other fancy paper will be used.

Based on reading various posts on this forum, it seems xerox maintenance and supply costs are alot. My BIGGEST concern in regards to the copier is LOWEST total cost of printing per paper (included drum roll, toner, fuser etc). I dont mind the spending the extra initial outlay on getting a copier that costs a bit more. Based on what i've read, this leaves XEROX out of the equation due to their higher than average cost ( or maybe i am wrong). Maybe someone here can stir me in the right direction.


Thank you !

- PS - One question that bugs aswell is, copiers have drums/fuses that need to be replaced after certain amount of pages are printed usualy 80000-100000 pages, does that become half that if i am printing duplex?

 

[Emtri]

You have alot of options. I've been pretty impressed with our Ricoh b/w machine.

One thing to understand about copiers is that all the quotes they give you are based off single 8.5x11 sheet with 5% coverage. For example, your 40ppm machine, will now become less (say 30ppm) running 11x17 and then less running duplex, maybe down to 15 ppm on 11x17.

Also generally copiers in a production environment are charged per click of 11x17, which means its more cost effective for you to run things two up and cut in half.

Your duplex clicks will count as two, as its imaged each time.

 

[yas1987]

Thanks Emtri for the fast response. I have learned something valuable from what you said. So based on your response, what do you think is a good machine, Something with lowest overall cost per print, a toner that has more than 32000 print per 5% coverage since in reality it will only be 10000 pages if i where to print at 30% coverage. Also i didnt quiet understand what you meant by "more cost effective for you to run things two up and cut in half. " Can you please eloborate.

Thanks once again Emtri !

 

[OkiTech]

Hello Yas, how are you? As was previosly mentioned Ricoh is a good machine. We're in printing and Equipment sales/service business. As far as used machines , I would recommend
Ricoh MP-9000 / 1100 or Canon ImageRunner 7105.
Cost per print will have several variables, it will depend a lot on who will service your machine and how much will it cost per service call and how big is the mark-up on parts. Lets say Drum for Ricoh cost me about $300, I can bill anywhere from 300 to 600 as there is very little info about pricing on this things.
Few things to keep in mind - Canon machines cost a little more upfront (yes even used) but they built a little different from others... for example - They don't use Carrier/Developer, somethings that should be periodically changed in other machines, Drum is rated to 2.5 - 3 million but cost near $2000. All large canon machines we service -it is mostly cleaning, feed components, Corona wire assemble, maintenance components.
Pros: Less service calls
Cons: Machines that use Carrier/Developer tend to output "juicier" black. If that drum gets scratched......
As far as Ricoh MP-9000 - this is the machine we have in our printshop. We bought it with 800K and put another million on it within few month. Once upon a time it would throw the curve (they all do) but generally really nice machine.
You may void all service cost headaches by getting a service contract. Quantity that you're planning to print should get you a 0.7 - 0.8 cents per page covering everything with the toner. If yo could build that in to price of whatever you plan to print - I think you much better off.
Oh, and 40 ppm duplex - you need a machine that can run 90 ppm straight.
There is also an Oce Varioprint (don't remember the model) that can image both sides in 1 pass @ 80-90 ppm - yes 2 drums, etc. but they're really hard to find especially in nice condition and you need to make sure that you have a dealer in your area that can and willing to support it. The only one I've seen so far had nearly 10 mil clicks and was sold to someone in Europe almost immediately for more than $10K untested, no completion check, guy didn't care, he just grabbed it .
Let me ask you - where are you located please?
Roman.

 

[yas1987]

Hi Unlimted, thanks for your feedback. I'll answer your friend first, i am fromi Toronto, Canada. There is something i must clarify from your previous post. You stated " Quantity that you're planning to print should get you a 0.7 - 0.8 cents per page covering everything with the toner.", i will assume that you meant 0.07 -0.08 cents, but i disturbed at the fact that i would cost so much to print. For example i am going to print 600 pages duplex ( 1200 regular pages, approx an average of 30% coverage), that would amount to approx $72 per book at a cost price of 0.07 cents per copy. I am able to get that similar printed book outsourced from someone for $35. I felt as if i can do it for cheaper than $35 which is why i was looking into purchasing a copier.

 

[Emtri]

see this is where the whole 11x17 thing comes it, generally on production machines, a click is a click (0.8 cents or $0.008) be it 8.5 or 11x17 means that you can now run 2 books for that cost.

1200 pages x 2 for being double sided x 0.007 = $16.80 in clicks + cost of paper / 2 because you can run two up on an 11x17 page = Whatever cost + markup

I hope this makes sense.

Personally for b/w machines I like the Ricoh, but I have very little experience outside of Ricoh or Konica machines.

 

[Possumgal]

Yas, I think he means 7/10 of one cent, not 7 cents per click. That brings the price way down. It sure won't be $72 for a 600 pg duplexed book.

 

[Emtri]

Correct, you would be looking at 8.40 in clicks

 

[OkiTech]

Guys, sure when you lease a new copier from giant like xerox and paying Lease and click charges they may close their eyes on 11x17 clicks not being charged double at the end of the road - the deal someone makes that's how it goes, i.e. if you worked out your contract as "Click is click don't matter what size" - excellent but we're discussing a possibility of enrolling a used machine on the contract with may-be smaller private dealer where those clicks is the only money company will make. We don't roll that way with B/W machines for example, I don't mean to dictate standards but it may not necessary be the case everywhere with everyone.

 

[Joe Duffy]

The Konica Minolta 1050 is a workhorse and can be had at a good price and service and support should not be a issue.

If that is too much, look at the 950.

 

[Emtri]

No that is correct, not all machines and places do single click 11x17, It also may necessitate a guillotine.
It depends on what sort of jobs hes going to be running and what (if any) service contract he will be getting

I am also a fan of the 1050, but I used to work as a Konica tech

 

[yas1987]

Hey everyone, thank you so much for your input. I genuinely appreciate it !
I am going to look into the suggested photocopiers and i learned some important things of Emtri and Unlimited!

 

[OkiTech]

Yeah KM1050 is a monster, I see them at leasing returns warehouses with like 40-50 million clicks and working!

 

[OkiTech]

Mr Yas, may ask which state are you in please?

 

[OkiTech]

Oh I see - Torono Canada.

 

[yas1987]

Guys, most of the suggest copiers are in the 10k range, any copiers i can get around $3500-5000 for a used machine?

 

[Emtri]

Im not sure you'd find a production class machine in that ballpark, but there are definitely some machines you can get in that price rage. Some of the mid range xerox machines I think are that area I know you can ebay at Xerox Doc12 for about that $4000 but its an older colour machine.

 

[OkiTech]

Yas, I can get Ricoh MP9000 or higher model with nice meter for 4500-5000.
I am talking about machine with under a million clicks. The biggest problem will be shipping - even that we're not that far - New York, 1000 lbs will cost some money to ship.
I will get back to you with what we have today.

 

[OkiTech]

We have:
CANON IR7095 RADF DUP 4 DRW SCAN FIN: V1
it is a 95 ppm machine, about $26,000 - 30,000 new with under 300,000 pages on the meter only - should be like new and need nothing or almost nothing till it gets closer to a million. $5000 including having it palletized, ready for shipping.

RICOH AF-MP9000 meter: 1,179,961 RADF DUP LCT -3 DRW PRINT SCAN FIN: SR5000
Even with a little higher meter - this should be a really nice machine, there are plenty of treads stating that people had these going over 10mil. This is the machine we had picked for our printshop, put 1.5 million on it so far with just a regular maintenance kit replacement. Price $4300 including packing/palletizing.

We can, also, offer a
TOSHIBA E-STUDIO901 meter: 721,364 RADF DUP LCT-3 DRW PRINT/SCAN FIN: SR5000
It is similar to Ricoh MP9000 with Toshiba label. Price is the same as Ricoh.

We also have 2 Konica-Minolta 1050 available but they're near $7000 in price and meter counts are over 20 million - I know this machine is really good but 20 million clicks - I would not buy it for myself and really don't want to offer it to you.

Please let me know if anything interests you.
Roman.

 

[yas1987]

Hey Roman and Emtri thanks again for replying. @ Emtri - i think il just spend a little more initially and get the production copier, assuming it will cost me less per print with that machine . @ Unlimited - I am not planning to buy a copier right this moment, couple of months from now, i couldnt find anything locally in regards to the models you guys specified, i will most likely purchase my machine from you, even drive to new york to pick it up, since its not TOO TO FAR and i need to make a trip down south anyways, I will definately keep you in mind, and thanks again guys, very helpful!

PS. Roman can you pm me your email address , so i can contact you when i am ready to buy a copier . thx