X700, C6501 or CS665: type size, page curl & RIP.

S

stueey

Active member
Having read a load of amazing stuff on this great forum I have gained a fair bit of knowledge but am still unresolved as to which new printer to get.

My choices are between the Océ CS665, the Xerox 700 and the KM6501.

Currently the Océ is ahead of the KM due mainly to the money side of things (not quite finished nailing it all down yet though but have had better offer from Océ than KM). The same configuration and RIP but without a spectrophotometer is pretty much £10,000 more for the Xerox 700 than the Océ. The Océ also has the option to print 1200x330mm sheets which is definitely something I can sell.

My biggest unanswered questions are these:
Is the KM/Océ unit really curl free, even without a decurler?

How does the KM/Océ unit stack up against the Xerox for small point sizes in type, particularly light coloured or white type reversed out of a dark background?

How much difference does the RIP really make? If I didn't need an external RIP I'd be laughing all the way to the bank.
 
We've evaluated both the KM6501 and the X700 and found the Xerox 700 to give a slightly sharper print. We also liked that the colors almost always seemed more saturated and vivid on the X700. It seemed as though the KM6501 had a slight edge when it came to gradients (less banding) but they both looked about the same on small type, both just a simple black as well as a reverse (4pt) on black and color builds. Ultimately we have decided to purchase a new machine from Canon that just hit the market mainly due to price. You might want to give it a shot if you have a Canon dealer you can trust for service (that was our main problem with the KM). The price was about 20K lower and they matched the Xerox on click rates giving us a slightly lower rate (0.009) on black and white 11x17 clicks.

The machine is the imagerunner Advance 9075 from Canon. We compared samples from both it as well as their upper end ImagePress line and found the quality to be virtually identical. It doesn't show up on their website but it's due to start shipping in November. My feeling is you could get it outfitted with the external RIP, staple finisher, and POD deck for about 65K

As for RIPs we went the direction of a bustled rip for our DC250 and found it sorely lacking in horsepower when processing larger files, particularly of the VDP variety through it's FreeForm feature. In my opinion if you're providing pay for print you're foolish to not get the additional features and horsepower on the RIP despite their high cost.
 
That's an excellent reply, I'm really grateful, thanks very much. I totally forgot the banding issue on gradients, on my DC240 it's often a HUGE issue. I'm sure the 700 is far better but the KM being better at that is another thing that's going to help me sell it's prints alongside litho.

The Canon sounds interesting, I'll contact our local dealer tomorrow. When you say 65k are you taking $, £ or euros?

Generally my requirements for a RIP are fairly basic, I've survived with just the bustled RIP on my DC240 and the only things I'd really have liked are imposition (could live without it though) and increased print quality, something that I've been told several times (not always by a salesman!) that you get with a RIP. I'm not sure why this would be but I can believe it as it is the case with a RIP for my large format inkjet, I have way more control over things than I do when printing direct.
 
I am a saleman for a large Xerox Production Reseller and would just make a couple of points.

The price difference between a X700 and a KM6501 should not be as great as you may have been told. If it is it maybe down to the reseller. There are only a few full production resellers in the UK but many office reseller who sub deal the production 700 putting an extra margin on.

If you have been having trouble with banding on gradations then a full production Rip will make a difference.
 
Hello Stueey
65K mostly in USD as far know. Here in dar i am getting Xerox only the print engine with out any finishing for 110K...
 
Ratters...
Thanks for that. One of the main Xerox dealers in the UK (who I already have a service contract with for my DC240) has just come in with an aggressive price but still £2000 plus my old machine as a trade in more than Océ.

Mr Graphics...
Xerox are not far behind Océ for the C665 (basically a KM6501) but ahead of a quote I just had for the KM6501. The 6501 has been quoted at approximately £7,000 more than the Xerox700 and nearly £10,000 more than the Océ. That is even with the 6501 only having the embedded RIP and both the others having external Fiery RIPs.

I'm currently waiting on a price for the new Canon, a local dealer has not had the pricing in for the new Imagerunner Advance 9075 as yet but has assured me they are willing to put one in at virtually no profit on the unit on the basis that they can use me as a local port of call for demoing the unit to other potential clients. I think that sounds fair enough, I have met them before and they do seem like nice people to deal with, their office also barely 5 minutes drive from us.
 
Hello Folks
I have a simple question to ask. In my country Tanzania the Xerox Distributor are expensive. But from abroad the Xerox 700 is reasonable. According to the Xerox agent i cannot buy machine from outside as each and every country has its own distributor. My problem is if the distributor in my country are selling at expensive price then why can't i bring the machine from out and get their technical service?

Please advice and give me suggestions...

Thanks
 
stueey,

Being a main Xerox Dealer (CCCS) is not the same as being XPR (Xerox Production Reseller).

You should get a similar price to OCE. If you want to discuss an alternative price please feel free to call me 07971 690821.
 
Ratters, thanks I will almost definitely give you a call but I can also just tell you that the dealer is Xeretec, I'm lead to believe that they are one of the bigger Xerox dealers/consessions/whatever they're called and have good buying power. Of course that could just be some shit that a rep told me. :) ha ha
 
Hello Ratters

Where are you from? sound like i can get a quote from you and compare with the reseller here.... to get atleast rough estimations...
 
Stueey -

You should check out the Ricoh Pro C900. Priced a bit more (around $100K USD) than the Xerox 700 or KM6501, however worth a look. Front to back registration is tighter than any other cutsheet color device I've looked at in this market segment. Also, runs at full 90PPM speed with all substrates (up to 300gsm). Ability to hold very stable color from day to day and sheet to sheet is also a strength. Lastly, the ability to perform some of your own service might be of benifit to you via their TCRU program (Trained Customer Replaceable Units). Good luck with your decision!
 
Hi Badgerfan,

You mean to say Ricoh C900 is better then xerox700 and KM. And when you say 100k do you mean only the print engine or the complete machine.

With best regards.
MR. Graphics
 
Hi Badgerfan,

You mean to say Ricoh C900 is better then xerox700 and KM. And when you say 100k do you mean only the print engine or the complete machine.

With best regards.
MR. Graphics
 
The Ricoh is out of my price range, I'm still at the stage of needing to grow a lot in this market.

Currently the Océ CS665 is my choice, I'm going to have a session at the UK HQ this coming Monday with my own files and own paper. KM offered me a 6501 for a slightly lower click rate but the 6501 does not support the 120mmx330 page size that the Océ does and this is a reasonable potential market for me. Also Océ seem a bit more focussed on colour consistency and have a spectrophotometer (is that the right word???) included.

Xerox is now almost totally out of the running, particularly after asking an engineer a couple of 'casual' questions he confirmed that the 700 is not that different in finish to the DC240 I currently use. This makes it right out for me as the Xerox toner and method of print causes way too many issues with external finishing equipment.
 
Why would you need to run 120x330? Surely you would impose this multi-up on a sheet? 6 for the price of 1.
 
UberTech said:
Konicas do this also, you should know you can't have any finisher or PF unit for this print size.
Click to expand...

A Konica Dealer has told me this is not an option on the 6501 as they can't bill for it. I have told them that Océ offer it and asked if they have any work around. I'm waiting for the reply. I do find it quite unusual but the KM dealer was aware of the page size being possible in the machine, he just said it wasn't offered by KM.

Océ say I can have the single high capacity feeder and still run this sized sheet. I have no need for finishing as all ours is done off line.

Does anyone know of any other advantages or disadvantages between Océ or KM?
 
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