X700, C6501 or CS665: type size, page curl & RIP.

[X33]

My problem is if the distributor in my country are selling at expensive price then why can't i bring the machine from out and get their technical service?

Simply global economics.

Buy it from the local distributor; you'll have 100% guarantee.

 

[tppsg]

The Ricoh is out of my price range, I'm still at the stage of needing to grow a lot in this market.

Currently the Océ CS665 is my choice, I'm going to have a session at the UK HQ this coming Monday with my own files and own paper. KM offered me a 6501 for a slightly lower click rate but the 6501 does not support the 120mmx330 page size that the Océ does and this is a reasonable potential market for me. Also Océ seem a bit more focussed on colour consistency and have a spectrophotometer (is that the right word???) included.

Xerox is now almost totally out of the running, particularly after asking an engineer a couple of 'casual' questions he confirmed that the 700 is not that different in finish to the DC240 I currently use. This makes it right out for me as the Xerox toner and method of print causes way too many issues with external finishing equipment.

I am curious to know what are issues the Xerox toner can cause in finishing.

A spectrophotometer in my opinon is a must unless you are printing only Microsoft office documents. Without it, you are left with off the glass calibration if you are getting a Fiery RIP. Fiery ColorCal (off the glass calibration) does help somehow, but I do not like it personally.

As for picking Oce or KM, it would be wise to decide based on level of training the service engineers received if the click charges are the same or similar.

 

[stueey]

I am curious to know what are issues the Xerox toner can cause in finishing.

A spectrophotometer in my opinon is a must unless you are printing only Microsoft office documents. Without it, you are left with off the glass calibration if you are getting a Fiery RIP. Fiery ColorCal (off the glass calibration) does help somehow, but I do not like it personally.

As for picking Oce or KM, it would be wise to decide based on level of training the service engineers received if the click charges are the same or similar.

The Xerox toner and the amount of static produced causes both grip issues and double feed problems because the sheets stick together so much. The cracking is really bad too but I'm not sure how well the others do with that either yet.

No one other than Océ have offered a spectrophotometer as a standard issue item, I'm impressed with what appears to be a good focus on colour. They also say theirs is FOGRA approved (some European standard), I'm not sure if others are too but Océ seem to be the only ones telling you about it.

 

[stueey]

I have spent a bit of time having a demo of the Océ C665. Generally I was VERY impressed. I'd brought some files I'd chosen that were typical of what we handle and had made up a file that included an area of skin and a full colour black that had varying sizes down to 4pt of text in Helvetica light in white, red, blue and green. Amongst my files were also a large area of solid yellow at about 20% and a large area of solid black, both were printed really impressively. Another file was mainly greyscale but with a hint of colour and a very light shade with a radial gradient to white. This had been a disaster when trying to print on my DC240 but the C665 did a fine job, I could see some banding but had to look hard for it.

The print finish was excellent, very similar to litho, in fact I'm not even sure I'd have distinguished between the two at a glance.

With one of the high capacity feeders installed it will feed pages as small as 148mmx100mm.

It duplexed a 300gsm Silk that I use with no problem whatsoever and there was no mention of me not supposed to be doing it, they just said that it was only guaranteed to work up to 256gsm.

Time was a bit of an issue so I didn't get to spend too much time using the front to back registration tools to get things spot on but the alignment was very consistent so I'm happy it was just a case of saving some presets for the stock I was using or to use a bit of image shift in the Fiery.

The one thing I'm really confused about is the decurler. The thing that Océ said was a decurler is actually referred to as a Relay Unit on the KM6501 (same machine) and KM have a HT-503 that is a dehumidifier/heater that they say 'Helps remove curl/ripples from coated stocks.' This seems to sit in the high capacity feeder. Whatever the set up was in the 665 resulted in amazingly flat sheets.

Does anyone here have experience of the page curl and decurler situation on either the Océ C665 or KM6501?

 

[UberTech]

The engine has two decurlers built in but they are really only for the lighter stocks. One is static the other changes depending on paper setting. If your going to run lots of heavy stocks then I would go for the relay unit. The engine decurlers don't quite have the grunt to flatten board determined to curl.

The relay unit will also reform the board so if you need to curl it the other way you can, if you run NCR the sheets will come out dead flat if you do a curl reform.

 

[stueey]

Thank you so very much for that!

Does the reform/curl the other way option just involve a setting or does the paper have to pass through the machine twice?

Am I right in thinking that if I have the relay unit that I have to have some kind of finisher also? We have off line finishing so I really don't need any.

 

[UberTech]

Thank you so very much for that!

Does the reform/curl the other way option just involve a setting or does the paper have to pass through the machine twice?

Am I right in thinking that if I have the relay unit that I have to have some kind of finisher also? We have off line finishing so I really don't need any.

You set your decurl direction in a user menu - off, curl-up, curl-down. The paper goes thru the RU on the way out so no need pass through again

You will need a finisher of some description. Oce may have specific configurations but on KM's you can have anything. The least expensive of which, I would imagine, is the staple finisher.

 

[stueey]

Thanks. I can't believe that sales people don't know their products a bit better. The KM seller says that it's a conveyance unit that doesn't need a finisher attached, the Océ rep didn't even know that it needed a finisher either and says that the cheapest way of me getting one is going to cost £4600 more!

 

[UberTech]

Well I would be going back to km and saying you'll take it with a relay unit. Then when the morons work out it needs a finisher you will get it for cost. Then again it sounds like they have no idea what they are doing so the safe option would be the oce. That seems alot of money for a staple finisher!

 

[stueey]

I'm off Océ now really as I think the finisher quote sucks. The company selling the KM have some excellent policies in place and use their level of service as one of their main selling points. They have also offered to put in a unit for me to demo for 2 weeks and told me that what I need is going to cost me just under £2000. This apparently will give me the relay unit with a stacking capacity of 300 sheets. Personally I think they are going to find out there's been a mistake but either way whether I go for Océ or KM I'm in for more money and I've been quoted a lower click charge with less commitment with the KM option. The KM option also means that my toner ordering is done automatically, they connect to the printer via the web and check levels. Here's something I've copied from the proposal:

Our Service Agreement includes the following commitments to our commercial clients:

Your device will be in service 99% of the time. (We can't guarantee that it won't breakdown, but we do guarantee that we will fix it within four hours.)

All consumables and key parts are stored on site – including a minimum of five sets of toners. Additional toners are sent DHL next day delivery

You will have direct access to a local private engineer (who is also available weekends and out of hours at an hourly rate)

There is no minimum billing, and you will be invoiced in arrears

Free, unlimited training – we will even assist you with your first few big rush jobs if required. Advanced training is also available at our head office which will enable your staff to change consumable parts on site.

Ongoing advice on how to get the most out of your press

We pay for your first four hours at a local marketing agency so you make the best of your new marketing opportunity

You will have access to our showroom five days a week for extra work
Assistance with pricing and invoicing where needed

We pride ourselves on our flexibility and willingness to provide the best service possible. So, if you have any concerns or would like to discuss an area in more detail, we would like to hear from you.

 

[leo]

Hello, sorry for post here, Does anybody know where I can buy OEM tonner for KM 6500, 6501? I have big demand for OEM tonner. Please advise. Much grateful,
Leo.

 

[MakinCopies]

KM6501 VS Canon 9075

KM6501 VS Canon 9075

I am looking at the KM6501 and the C9075. I should have pricing this week and will look at the abilities of both machines. Please keep the dialogue going. I saw both at the print expo in Chicago last month and they both look great compared to my 5 year old Canon 3200's (i have 2) they have over 4 million copies between them. The Canon is leading the race right now but I am open to your suggestions.

 

[stueey]

The KM6501/Océ C665 is awesome, a real litho like finish. I've not had much joy enquiring about the canon here, I think they are way off the price of the Océ or KM and they wouldn't get down to the same click charge as the others, that's in the UK anyway. In fact the local canon place didn't even say they'd heard of the c9075 and were trying to sell me a c9070.

 

[MakinCopies]

The 9075 is coming in at a good price so far. I do think the click rate of the KM will be lower and I know that will be the difference. I will know soooooo much more in the next few days and will report back as to what I find.

 

[Windward]

Xerox 700 vs. KM6501

Xerox 700 vs. KM6501

We have been looking at both machines to replace/supplement our Docucolor 250. Not surprisingly, the X700 output looks a lot like the DC250. Colors are very saturated but this also means that halftone shadows are overly dark. I assume we will be able to adjust this by creating paper-specific profiles. The KM6501 colors are less saturated and the shadow density has more gradations. Coverage for large solids is excellent on both machines. Type edges seem a tiny bit sharper on the KM6501. We could sell the color output of either machine.

We have not been able to test back-to-front register (a significant problem for the DC250). We asked for a demo at a dealer that sells both lines. When I arrived for the demo, they told me both machines needed service before this type of print test. I was really annoyed. Register and skew are both problems we need to overcome in our next machine.

I have also looked at the Ricoh C700EX and C900. The C700EX has more limited paper handling capacity than the other machines and at 600 dpi resolution, it's not competitive with the others. The C900 is faster and much more expensive than any of the others. Both the C700EX and C900 have excellent tonal range with good shadow detail. The C900 printed excellent, consistent solids. However, both Ricoh machines produce noticeable toner build-up on printed sheets. Xerox, KM, and Canon produce a much flatter image.

I am hoping for a demo of the new Canon C9075 that I saw at Print09. However, there are still no machines in my area (northern California). Its features match the X700 and KM6501 and I expect it to be in the same price range.

Our overall experience with Xerox over almost four years has been excellent. The DC250 has been reliable and service response has always been within 24 hours; sometimes the same day. Despite its limitations, the DC250 has been consistently profitable for our company. Now that we know the problems, we hope to solve them with a newer device.

I'll report more test results and prices when I have them. Thanks to everyone for posting your thoughts.

 

[stueey]

I tested the Xerox 700 today, I'd sat that the coverage for large solids on the Xerox isn't even in the same ballpark as the Océ C665 (same as the KM6501) that I tested. It may well be ok on digital specific stocks but I used my own paper for both and it's decent litho paper that I get great prices on, way cheaper than digital only stock. The Océ laid down absolutely AWESOME solids, including a black only image that really was so good I wouldn't have believed if I didn't see it come off the printer myself whereas on exactly the same paper with the same file the solids on the Xerox were positively rubbish with very uneven coverage, no better than my DC240 really.

4pt white text in Helvetica Light reversed out of a full colour black background was most definitely better on the Xerox, it was very impressive to be honest but subtle shades of dark colour were very bland on the Xerox but far more clear on the Océ. The Xerox had front to back registration that was really good without even making any adjustments for any of the 3 different stocks I printed on, the Océ needed a bit of work but was very good.

The Xerox people say that the 700 will duplex 300gsm even though they only guarantee 220gsm but that the engineers don't like people doing it. Océ say their machine will do it (and I seen it steam through the 300gsm silk that I use with no problems) but they will only guarantee that it will work up to 256gsm.

The Océ/KM printer has a far more litho look and feel than the Xerox 700.

The output on the Xerox 700 was way flatter than expected and it wasn't configured with the extra decurler, only the default built in one. The Océ had a decurler and the sheets were completely flat.

After using the 700 today it is even less under consideration than it ever was, the Océ/KM unit gives very sellable prints and will mean that I can run far more jobs digitally rather than farming out to a litho press.

I'm keeping my Xerox DC240 though as it's in great condition and I have some clients like it and jobs that actually look very good with the really glossy toner look.

 

[almouhitcompany]

Oce CS665 Toner Prints

Oce CS665 Toner Prints

How much CS665 toner have capacity to print number of pages.Can i have detail on it.

The Ricoh is out of my price range, I'm still at the stage of needing to grow a lot in this market.

Currently the Océ CS665 is my choice, I'm going to have a session at the UK HQ this coming Monday with my own files and own paper. KM offered me a 6501 for a slightly lower click rate but the 6501 does not support the 120mmx330 page size that the Océ does and this is a reasonable potential market for me. Also Océ seem a bit more focussed on colour consistency and have a spectrophotometer (is that the right word???) included.

Xerox is now almost totally out of the running, particularly after asking an engineer a couple of 'casual' questions he confirmed that the 700 is not that different in finish to the DC240 I currently use. This makes it right out for me as the Xerox toner and method of print causes way too many issues with external finishing equipment.