Xerox 700 or Docucolour 5000

[random]

Hey no problemo - As I have said before, regardless of box if they can't support it you shouldn't buy it.

 

[GrandstandStore.com]

The 700

The 700

I stumbled across this thread and saw a lot of people speculating about the performance of the 700. We have had ours running for about a month now and I have been very pleased with its performance but here are a few things a sales rep will probably not tell you.

First duplexing is slow; less than half speed, fortunately this is not a big issue for me as most of my printing is on 12x18 300 GSM and must be done manually.

Secondly registration is a big issue with this machine especially with thicker paper from the high-cap feeder. We have had our registration adjusted about three times but finally had to adjust our files to ensure we got the results we wanted. The good news is we are able to do that for our products and the machine is pretty consistently off.

FYI: We rotate the file about and eighth inch, move left a sixteenth and down about a thirty second.

Thirdly the toner cartridges are very small. We print full coverage so we eat through them pretty frequently.

Lastly; and I haven’t really given this issue the time it needs since it doesn’t affect us that much, but we get a lot of jams when feeding from the bypass tray. I think this could just be an issue with the installation of our high-cap feeder, but like I said I haven’t really taken the time to investigate.

All that being said the print quality is great even color tones all the way through to the last page and not enough good things can be said about the Xerox technicians here in Phoenix.

 

[random]

Secondly registration is a big issue with this machine especially with thicker paper from the high-cap feeder. We have had our registration adjusted about three times but finally had to adjust our files to ensure we got the results we wanted. The good news is we are able to do that for our products and the machine is pretty consistently off.

FYI: We rotate the file about and eighth inch, move left a sixteenth and down about a thirty second.

Thirdly the toner cartridges are very small. We print full coverage so we eat through them pretty frequently.

Lastly; and I haven’t really given this issue the time it needs since it doesn’t affect us that much, but we get a lot of jams when feeding from the bypass tray. I think this could just be an issue with the installation of our high-cap feeder, but like I said I haven’t really taken the time to investigate.

All that being said the print quality is great even color tones all the way through to the last page and not enough good things can be said about the Xerox technicians here in Phoenix.

It is strange you need the registration 'adjusted' this sounds like you have tech come in and do it? rflores boasted sometime ago that all these adjustments can be done by the user. Perhaps you can get them to show you how to do it? Apparently this a new feature on the 700 so maybe the techs aren't aware of it.

Bypass trays are marginal on any machine I think.

 

[rsands]

i think it needs a good technician to look at it...the Xerox 700 has built in media profiles that can do that all from a profile for you instantly. its setup on the lcd panel on the printer...it can rotate, move, sku all of this itself on different weights depending on what you set per weight and coating

 

[X33]

the above is correct, but you don't need a technician ... do it yourself

all the user documentation is at Xerox' Support webiste : www.xerox.com/support ... and in the media kit customers receive

 

[smiller]

Slow duplexing on the 700?

Slow duplexing on the 700?

First duplexing is slow; less than half speed, fortunately this is not a big issue for me as most of my printing is on 12x18 300 GSM and must be done manually.
QUOTE]

I was expecting this machine to duplex at the same impression rate as simplex (i.e. 1/2 the page rate, but the same number of sides per minute).

I'm curious, do you know about how much slower the duplexing is? Have you timed a run in simplex versus duplex?

- smiller

 

[X33]

measured in IMAGES PER MINUTE, here are some examples :

1. 8.5x11 Uncoated 64-176gsm : Simplex 70 ipm / Duplex 70 ipm

2. 8.5x11 Coated 176gsm : Simplex 51 ipm / Duplex 46 ipm

3. 8.5x11 Coated 220gsm : Simplex 35 ipm / Duplex 31 ipm

check your Customer Expectation Document, it details the simplex and duplex speeds for different weights and uncoated vs coated. If you are not getting what it says, contact Xerox.

 

[Craig]

That is the beauty of Xerox, the CED is your bible. If it doesn't do as you have in writing then they fix it.

 

[smiller]

Xerox 700 performance

Xerox 700 performance

Thanks for the tip. The Xerox customer expectation document did the trick. One line on page 8 is curious:

The maximum print/copy speed for the system is determined by the process speed of the Xerox 700 Digital Color Press engine; image quality adjustments are done frequently to maintain consistent IQ.


I imagine these calibration cycles can significantly impact performance for longer runs if they need to run fairly often or take a fair amount of time. Does anyone have any experience how these "image quality adjustments" impact actual performance?

 

[amsman]

Sorry to continue to drag this thread for so long.....but.

We are a Commercial Offset Printer with no digital at the moment, and estimating initialy to move 60k - 90k impressions per month to digital.

We are ready to purchase and have tested both the 5000AP and the 700 and have found the print quality on the 700 to be superior to the 5000AP in gradients and screens in general, not to mention the matt offset look. ( Even with the Freeflow RIP, as the CREO is not offered in Australia )

I am forecasting that the Wax Polymer Toner and 700 System overall will be the upgrade to the 7000AP and 8000AP and therefore the 5000 is purchasing slightly old Technology when compared with the 700. ( correct me if you think I am wrong.... )

The 5000AP specs suit our application perfectly and would be the perfect machine, but the difference in the technology and quality concerns me.

We will be printing 90% 300gsm Board SRA3 ( and upto 480mm on the 700 ) and during testing I was aware of the dramatic speed decrease on the 700 when running the SRA3 300gsm, to 15-17ipm.
We are obviously aware we can drop the size of our output to A4 improving the speed and doubling our click rate.

It is in the spec brochure and was explained to me by our Sales Reps ( who have been excellent ), but I find it possibly too slow for commercial use.

We are looking at it from an offset point of view, and are looking at a great improvement for the investment, but then again who is'nt.

Are there any operations who are in the same dilema or who find the 700 is doing the job?

Thanks in Advance.....

 

[Craig]

If you are pushing the limits of the machine day in and day out you will be inclined to have more maintenance than "normal" therefor and unhappy owner/operator, no matter what the brand. Have you had prints from the 5000AP with a Fiery vs a Freeflow RIP? Just curious to see if there is a change, also was the machine calibrated first?

In my opinion the 700 is not the machine if you are going to be running 300gsm through daily, you will never get anything done 15 to 17 imp is slow, about 1 print every 4 seconds!

I don't know if I totally agree with your thought on the wax polymar toner as upgrading technology, I have a Canon IR3200 that uses this type of toner and it is 6 years old. I still do not like the look of this toner on gloss coated stock, it always appears too flat, like crayons, this is from all the machines that use this toner. If it was such an upgrade then why is the iGen 4 still using a wet fuser? I run prints every day on my 8000AP that you will have a hard time telling if they came from a press or digital device. The 8000AP does not put down as much fuser oil as others will have you believe, the gloss is lower when running in All Weight mode. I was also told from a Xerox color analyst the the Creo on the 5000 will make more of a gloss look than the Fiery.

Also at 60 to 90k per month you may want to consider a move to a larger box, either the 7000AP or 8000AP, most folks tend to grow their volume through the lease.

 

[smatros]

the 700 has plenty of problems and faws, also the new toner is not perfect. Needs major improvements to become really stable and usable, especially on 300g.
With the volume you mention I would go for the 7000AP.

 

[benwarn]

i'd buy 2 or 3 700's for the same price as 1 5000, at the end of the day clients dont care about dpi, the want flat images, no oil on the sheet. Xerox cant handle that fact, and always try to push the 5000, but the fact is most clients prefer the 700.

 

[GregNac19]

Just found this forum, glad I did.

We are a small print shop with a Heidelberg MO 5 color offset, as well as a 2 color press. I was hired to run the mailroom 6 years ago, but am also trained as a Graphic Designer, so I know a few things (enough to get me into trouble!).

A few years ago, we bought a Xerox Docucolor 3535 for rush jobs and for variable data printing. We have outgrown it, and we bought a Prism to help take some of the burden off the 3535, BIG MISTAKE! Its better used as a boat anker!

Anyways, we are looking at trading in the 3535 for something faster and better. We are getting a 700 in a few weeks. Hope this isn't a turd like the Prism!

Anyway, those who have used a 700, what should I look for as benefits over the 3535? Also, can someone get me ACTUAL size measurements for the machine with a high-capacity large-format feeder, as well as the High-capacity stacker? Need to know that it will fit in our shop! I am just looking for educated opinions on the machine, especially compared to the 3535 or the 260 (our other option when we ordered the 700).

Thanks alot!
Mat

The 3535 does not do the 110Lb Cover stock. Also, the 700 is a "coated" machine. Which means it handles coated stocks much easier. The 3535 has a design flaw where the paper contacts the fuser at an angle which gives you the curl on heaver stocks. The 700 has a straight paper path and has finishing options.
If you get the 700 after having the 3535, it will be rank up there with having you first child.

 

[Craig]

i'd buy 2 or 3 700's for the same price as 1 5000, at the end of the day clients dont care about dpi, the want flat images, no oil on the sheet. Xerox cant handle that fact, and always try to push the 5000, but the fact is most clients prefer the 700.

I can agree with the with the statement when referring the a DC5000, but if the prints off the DC5000AP are anything like my DC8000AP then the above statement won't hold as much water. There is a tremendous difference between the AP and non-AP prints on my 8000AP. The prints on gloss coated in All Weights mode have about the same luster as an offset print. The prints from "oil-less" boxes have a flat dull look on gloss coated, like they were colored with crayons. One of my clients referred to the prints from a KM6500 as "fake looking", she said there was no "depth" to the image.

 

[benwarn]

yep i agree, the ap craps all over the non ap, but the non ap sucks for shine

 

[Craig]

yep i agree, the ap craps all over the non ap, but the non ap sucks for shine

The beauty of the AP is when you want the shine. A simple change of the productivity speed by the user to Single Weight Mode will take it back to the traditional Non-AP version of the press.

 

[Martian Arts]

KM Support

KM Support

Hey PaulJ,

I currently have a C550 with a bustled Fiery. Long story short worst decision I ever made. Service was horrible in my opinion. To be fair, they had every specialist visiting me and even gave me a demo while they took my machine back to test it, take it apart, and try to explore the problem.

No one know why it does what it does. I won't get into that on this post. The techs that I have interfaced with do not seem that well educated and for the last two years I have been paying for this machine only to have them continually explore why it isn't working right.

On one hand they have given me attention, but at first they said it could not be the machine. Now they just shrug there shoulders and I am stuck with the lease.

I have since switched to Xerox for my company's B&W machines. I am now looking to upgrade my entire fleet of machines (about 11 machines). KM wants to save the sale and is suggesting I upgrade to a Pro c6501. Xerox is suggesting a 700. I operate the company's in house printing department so this fits our needs in terms of volume/print production. I have seen a lot of opinions regarding the 6501. I would like to hear from anyone who has both machines for any advice and opinions.

Thanks

 

[Stochastic]

The 5000 is more akin to your 6060 and the 700 is a sped up 240. Which machine do you think will pump out more work? The battlefield tank (the 5000) or the lightly armored Hummer (the 700). If I were facing an all nighter trying to get out 20,000+ copies I sure know which machine I would, and did, pick. Go with the 5000 or the 7000/8000, you will not regret it!
Bert

Hmmmm sped up 2XX series printer huh? Well, if you looked carefully you will see a myriad of difference between the 700DCP and the 2XX range, oh thats right you have old oil based fusing technology.........my bad......Still Bert has a point, it is all about volume and I would suggest some blind testing with YOUR own samples. Show them to different people and get a median of which people think is best and there is the right machine for you based on print quality. oh Bert, I actually was a massive fan of oil based fusing as I am a photographer by trade and I just liked the gloss look lol (used to have two 6060)

Again Bert is right, some people you can show print out's to and they will always always choose the one which you think is the worst. I don't know why, must be murphys law or something but in my experience your customer is the ultimate judge on percieved quality. They are stupid those things we call customers but we all need them.... bit like a spleen really.... lol

Ultimately deploy 3 or 4 700DCP's into your workplace. Use each for a set purpose, i.e one which is setup for heavy weight one for light one for color quality and one spare.

I know because thats what I have done and I have one machine doing just business cards and packaging materials, one printing full color manuals for a tertiary education sector, one 700 dedicated to photobooks and one generic use mixed mode machine for different insertions and stock types in one job. But of course, I can do anything on all of them I just have them setup for specific jobs to minimise wastage. I have one advanced finisher on the book maker, square folder. High cap stackers on the heavyweight and standard finisher on the others. I think the most registration shift I have ever had has been about .75mm. I do about 1.8M total clicks p/mth across machines.

So the jury is still out again, it's all down to perception and what some people will say about one range of product will get completley discredited by another.

Choose based on your best hunch and alway use your own stocks when doing the demo, take about 3k sheets and given em death.

 

[EASYdoor]

I'm thinking on upgrading to the Xerox 500 / 5000 AP but i cannot find the CED for it can somebody post it please.